Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

  • Tore
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Re: Solar treatment of feces?

What is the cost of the unit?
Remember that temperature is not the only way to sanitize the feces. Time can also be used with lower temperatures to kill all pathogens. There is a chart at the bottom of the cover page on Sanitationhealthintransition.com that will give you time/temperature to kill pathogens. Why are you drying the urine. Would it not be easier to use the urine on crops within a week?
Another factor is that building UDDT toilets onsite provides jobs and the components can be purchased from local vendors. This allows money to stay in the local economy.
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  • jscheerer
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Re: Solar treatment of feces?

Dear Tore,
The current Ex works price from Germany is 2.550 €/ complete unit (with cabin structure) and 1.500 €/ functional unit. In a 40 “ Sea Container we could ship 16 complete units or 32 functional units.
Our future concept for Sani Solar is aiming for local production in order to reduce cost according to the local market and of course in order to generate local jobs.
In case of using the functional unit, it can be combined with any type of cabin structure build from local materials by local people.
The advantage of using this functional unit we see in the fact that it is 100 % water tight and therefore prevents environment pollution. On the other side, excrements are treated (at least partially) and are reduced in terms o mass. As result, emptying and management of the residue is hygienically safe and more easy compared to other systems.

Thanks, for the link to your interesting chart on pathogens reduction related to temperature/ time.
I would like to ask at which point temperature was measured (in the drying chamber or in the excrements). Also I would like ask what "pathogen destruction" or "safety zone" are referred to in terms of ufc/g or another unit.

Drying of the urine offers the following advantages:
- the mass/ volume of the residue/ fertilizer is reduced significantly which results in easier handling or storage
- the heat and radiation needed for evaporation help to reduce eventual pathogens
- the heat avoids urea being transformed into ammonia (no unpleasant smell, reduction of N-loss by volatilization)
- dried urine can be handled and stored easily until its application to plants at the adequate moment of fertilization

Related to your comment about local jobs I agree completely. Actually one of the criteria during the developing stage of Sani Solar was the possibility to produce locally and/ or to combine the industrial produced core part (functional unit) with any kind of cabin structure made of locally available material.
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  • hajo
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Hi Tore,

since you write right after Jochen, I assume that you refer to the SaniSolar presented by him. In an earlier posting he had given the price of one unit at 2,550 Eur, 1,500 EUR for the technical set only. That is surely too expensive for the local market (in Africa) and I agree with you that a UDDT could be build much cheaper from local materials using local labour. The problem is that 'cheap' is not necessarily a good argument for promotion of the technology neither with the potential users nor with the decision makers. My idea is that the technology may become acceptable by users and decision makers if it looks more modern and advanced and if also a reliable service chain is provided.

With regard to the drying of the urine: in a peri-urban environment (where I work) there is no use neither for dried faeces nor for fresh urine and both need to be collected. This is a big challenge with the urine when you have a 'compound' (high density area) of 250,000 people. They produce about 250,000 L of urine every day, part of it being 'spent' outside the compound, part of it going into the ground. If we assume that only 1/3, i.e. 80,000 L is going into UDDTs, these are huge quantities which have to be collected on a daily basis. Local drying as offered by the SaniSolar seems to me one possible solution. Even I think the efficiency of the drying has to be improved to cope with the quantities.

ciao
Hajo

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
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Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of a genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
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Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. :-)
Albert Einstein
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  • Tore
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Re: Solar treatment of feces?

At a price of 2,500 euros you can build many UDDT's from local material. The unit is beautiful which can also have unintended consequences. I have seen well build toilets turned into shrines and others that were being used to house chickens. The units are made from plastic. What is the life expectancy of the toilets?
One of the reasons I have supported building the UDDT's from local material is that it provides work for many people and the money gets to more through many hands.
The issue of what to do with the urine is definitely an issue. Many years ago we made solar stills to evaporate sea water to make fresh water. I don't remember the exact numbers but we had a still that was about 3' X 6' and we could evaporate about 2gallons to 2.5gallons of water a day. Using those numbers it would take a lot of surface area to handle that amount of generated urine each day. Is there any farming in the area so the urine could be transported to crop land and used as fertilizer?
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  • hajo
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Re: Solar treatment of feces?

Hi Tore,

by coincidence I just returned from Namibia where we ran some trials heating/drying FS from UDDTs. We put a black 90L container with cover and containing about 40 L FS into a metal lined box (approx. 1 x 1 x1 m3) covered with a glass and into the glaring Namibian sun. We measured temperatures in the box, in the container and in the FS and had the following results: top of box ~900C, bottom box ~750C, air in container above FS ~1200C, in FS ~450C. The figures are not reliable research figures (we used thermometers normally used in cars to measure oil and water temperatures), only give an indication of what to expect. But the low temperature in the FS surprised us. We anticipate that the FS does not transmit the heat and rather works as an insulator - for whatever reason. Thus we either have to get even higher temperatures at the bottom of the box/oven or spread the FS for easier access by the heat (this is why the LaDePa pelletises the FS!).

Also I think it is reasonable to argue that the air temperature is of no relevance as long the temperature in the FS does not reach the required level. It is the continuous temperature in the FS over a given time which eliminates possible ascaris which serve as indicator because they are the most resistant pathogens in FS: if they are gone, everything else is gone.

For how long which level of temperature has to be maintained to achieve the elimination of ascaris is given by the graph and is thereby answered. If you want to know more about this topic, please follow the following link provided to me by Marijn:

The safety zone graph referred to is likely to be the one from Strauch (1991). We recently had a discussion about that (with link to the report). forum.susana.org/forum/categories/253-mo...en-safety-zone-graph


The temperature has to be maintained continuously and not only to be reached as peak. Using a solar 'cooker' for me the question is open, whether 2x 7 hours on subsequent days at about 500C would be sufficient? I guess it would not be acceptable and therefore would rather aim to reach 600C for continuous and fewer hours in one day in the FS.

Regarding the topic of urine drying (by the SaniSolar) or alternative collection of fluid urine and transport to fields in the vicinity of the urban settlement, I want to point out that for 80,000 L/day, the smaller problem is the transport (8 x 10m3 trucks) but the bigger one is the collection from the producers (households) in form of 4,000 Nos. of 20 L jerry cans from as many households every day! In a different thread I had proposed to replace the 20L urine jerry cans with a 1m3 underground tank which would be emptied every 3 months with a motorised pump into a tanker. I did not receive any comments regarding this problem. Maybe it is not seen as a problem, maybe my calculation is wrong, I don't know?

ciao
Hajo

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of a genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
E.F. Schumacher
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. :-)
Albert Einstein
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  • jscheerer
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Re: Solar treatment of feces?

Hello Thore,

related to the cost, please consider that this is the current cost of the whole system produced in Germany.
The Sani Solar concept is designed for local production and, if it would be feasible, the construction of the cabin on site may be done by local people. On the other hand, Sani Solar is thought to be a solution for bigger sanitation projects were efficient logistics and fast implementation is needed (imagine to implement several thousand of units within one year, where each unit takes more than one day to be built up).

The expected lifetime of Sani Solar, made by PE with Uv-stabilizator is far more than ten years.

In arid and semi - arid regions with warm or hot climate, natural evaporation rate easily comes up to 6 or more liter per day and square meter. Enhancing that rate by some technical features (steel plate, greenhouse effect and adecuate ventilation), the evaporation is significant. However, as this process is depending on climatic conditions, there should be a alternative for accumulation, management of the urine.

Best

Jochen
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  • jscheerer
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Hi Hajo,

regarding your considerations about urine mangement in areas with higher population density, I agree that the nutrient load is to big to be used on site in a sustainable way. Evaporation of the liquid components of the urine (at least partially) could help to minimize necessary storage capacity / frequency of emptying service.
I think that collection of urine in a peri urban area makes sense also from the treatment point of view.
For instance a production of struvite could transform the urine in a good form of fertilizer, easy to handle and to distribute, however you need a certain amount of urine to make this process economically viable.

Best
Jochen
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  • muench
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Dear Jochen, Hajo and all,

In my role as moderator, I have now split the posts specifically relating to Sani Solar out of the other thread that was about solar drying in general ( forum.susana.org/comparisons-of-various-...in-the-feces-quickly ).
It wasn't easy as some posts were overlapping in both directions but I hope I've done a good job. I think it's useful that Sani Solar has its own thread now. I've added links to the other thread in each direction.

Firstly, I would like to underline what Hajo said to Jochen:

thanks again for the again open and detailed information! I didn't always find commercial suppliers so open with information on the forum.

Thank you!

Secondly, I note you have only sold 16 units so far. Is this within your business plan or much lower than your expectations for Year 1? Or is this really Year 1? For how many years have you been going for?

I took a look at your comany's website: 3psanitation.de/about-us/?lang=en

Do I guess right that sanitation is so far a subsidised department within your company? Perhaps even its corporate social responsibility arm?
I read here on your website: www.3ptechnik.com/7-1-About-3P.html

Best Filters for the Best Surface Water Professionals
3P offers the largest range of filters for rainwater harvesting and offers an unique knowledge in stormwater treatment systems. Major manufacturers of the European and American market use the technology of 3P. We also offer a wide range of decorative rainwater tanks and water points for any garden setting. 3P products are also obtainable from the Japanese market.


Please tell us more about the business aspects of your sanitation arm, i.e. how "commercial" is it, or is more something that is funded by donations and grants? How did it happen that your company decided to branch out into sanitation in developing countries?

Regards,
Elisabeth

P.S. We are sometimes asked how to deal with advertising on the forum. In our rule we say that plain advertising is not allowed, but what I call "friendly advertising" is allowed and encouraged. Your responses are a perfect example of something that I call "friendly advertising", i.e. advertising one's product but also being open to suggestions and feedback from our users, and responding to questions. Thank you! I will use this thread in future as an example if someone asks me what kind of advertising we allow on the forum.

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  • jscheerer
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Dear Elisabeth,

I would like to thank you for your initiative to generate a specific thread for Sani Solar, which we appreciate very much!

Regarding your questions about our company's profile/ activities, I will try to clarify the situation.

3P Technik is a technology provider, working since 1997 in the field of rainwater harvesting and storm water management. It was in 2007 when we where involved for the first time in a development project, at this time in Kenya where we provided equipment and technical consultancy for a project in which rainwater was harvested and treated as water source for a rural village.

From 2010 on, 3P is involved in a Brazilian Governmental project called "Agua para todos" (water for all), aiming to provide sanitation for the rural population of Northeast Brazil. Within this project, 1.000.000 rainwater tanks are to be built to provide water for rural households lacking any other kind of water supply. 3P supplies rainwater filters and other equipment to improve the quality of stored rainwater within this project.

It was in the context of “Agua para todos” when we became aware of the fact that there was no suitable sanitation technology available to scope with the conditions and requirements of such project, which basically are: Water scarcity, lack of infrastructure (water, energy, service), lack of sanitation (with corresponding impacts on public health and environment), large scale governmental project with its respective logistic requirements (transport, installation time...).

Finally, in 2014 we started, in collaboration with Brazilian stakeholders, to develop our own sanitation system, Sani Solar, designed with the aim to fulfil all of the specific requirements of Brazilian sanitation programs for the Northeast. The industrialized product was finished in December 2016.

Due to the unfortunate political and economical situation of Brazil, all kind of development programs where cancelled or frozen since the Impeachment of the former President Dilma Rouseff. Since then we’ve started to promote our technology worldwide.

We think that decentralized sanitation should be industrialized in order to be able to scope with the massive lack of access to sanitation, rather than individual approaches.

3P Sanitation is the most recent branch of 3P Technik, which still isn’t economically sustainable. Our aim is to find partners interested in local production of a scalable sanitation solution for onsite sanitation.
We are aware of the fact that sanitation has many cultural, political, climatic and other aspects and therefore we are open to adapt our system in collaboration with respective local stakeholders. All kind of comments/ considerations are very welcome!

We are also aware of the fact that technology is only one part of an effective and sustainable sanitation solution. That is why we would like to participate in debates regarding corresponding service chains.

Best,

Jochen
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  • RaHaSolutions
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Dear Elisabeth, Jochen, Hajo and all
This conversation is interesting. Jochen’s responses inspire lots of confidence.

Jochen, you say that “Sani Solar is thought to be a solution for bigger sanitation projects were efficient logistics and fast implementation is needed (imagine to implement several thousand of units within one year, where each unit takes more than one day to be built up)”

We share this opinion and we, in collaborations with others, are doing SANI SOLAR along roads in Kenya (see www.raha.solutions ). The project includes management/regulating usage.

We are doing it following directive by Kenya Ministry of Health that all service providers must provide their respective clients with toilets services for usage free of charge

Do we count on getting 1000+ units? Within what time frames would we get the units?

What other advantages should we count on?

Regards

Bringing Clean Close Water & Toilets
www.raha.solutions
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  • jscheerer
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Hello Raha,
I'm quite sorprised by your post and by your homepage, as I don't know who you are!
3P has no agreement with any company called Raha, not in Kenya nor in any other country. We did not give you any kind of permission to use images of our products, nor acting in our name or with reference to our company.

In case you would like to clarify this issue, I suggest you get in contact directly with me by e-mail.
From my point of view the SUSANA Forum is not the place for this kind of communication.

I hereby would like to point out that this kind of approach is completely against my convictions.

Jochen Scheerer
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  • RaHaSolutions
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Re: Sani Solar, designed as a dry sanitation system for rural areas with hot climate

Dear Jochen,
We did not intend to surprise you, we thought you knew about us. We apologise and we have emailed you a clarification.
Regards,
RaHa

Bringing Clean Close Water & Toilets
www.raha.solutions
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