Dear Kevin,

You are right assuming that the cost for our system will reduce significantly when produced locally on larger scale. However, at the moment I can’t give you an exact quotation due to the following reasons:

- According to our experience with manufacturers in different countries, the production cost may vary considerably because of different costs for labour, energy, raw material and taxes;
- As our business model is based on licensing agreements with local manufacturers, we can’t decide on their price policy;

Trying to answer your question, and as the result of calculations realized with manufacturers of different countries, we estimate that local large scale production can reduce cost in a range between 20 to 40 %, including on site installation.

At this point I would like to take the opportunity reflecting about the cost of a sustainable sanitation system. Which cost should we consider? The investment cost? The operation cost? Or the life cycle cost (e.g. 10 years)?
Are there any comparative studies on that?


Related to the second issue, I would like to confirm that we use a different concept for the application of our technology within urban or peri-urban environments. In such cases we consider the use in combination with an adequate service chain, to scope with higher occupancies and in order to allow adequate treatment and recycling of urine and faeces.
Compared to existing, latrine based, concepts we see advantages in the urine diversion and the drying process of excrements considering the emptying, transport and recycling options.
To differentiate from the Sani Solar concept we call this concept Sani Urban.
I can send you more information on this if you like.

Best

Jochen

Dear Jochen,

I want to press again on the topic of scale and prices.

I think that a standardized and pre-fabricated product like yours is necessary to reduce the number of people without toilets significantly. However, with the price of 1.500 - 2.500€ it is to expensive to reach that goal. But you said, that it is possible to produce the toilet locally. If you can produce a toilet in a country in the global south, what would the cost would be at that point? Can you give an example? I assume that the costs would come down with a higher number of units, do you have any numbers for this scale effect?

Can you also share information on the possible applications for the Sani Solar toilet? You said that it is possible to use it in rural and peri-urban areas. I could imagine, that it will require a slightly different model? Are the households taking care of the composting by themselves in the peri-urban areas or did you think of any aligned pick-up service?

Thank you
Kevin

Dear Titi,
as I've already mentioned in the e-mail exchange we had in between, I wanted to confirm that I'm always open to debate technical issues at the forum.
Regarding commercial issues, I would like to refer to our representative in Kenya, the company SOLARCREST. (Contact: Mr. John Nyaga: e-mail: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.).

Best.

Jochen

Hello Raha,
I did not receive your e-mail (and I've checked my spam also). Are you sure you send it to: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. ?
In any case I would like to insist that the forum is not the place if you want to communicate with us.

Please use another way.

Jochen

Hello Jochen,
We believe you did not receive our email but that is not important. What is important is that we have our programs for communal toilets and we have decided that we will use Sani solar. We are not interested in selling SANI SOLAR for profit. From attached guidance of our intentions, you may see that we will need the functional SANI SOLAR.
Regards,

Dear Jochen,
We did not intend to surprise you, we thought you knew about us. We apologise and we have emailed you a clarification.
Regards,
RaHa

Hello Raha,
I'm quite sorprised by your post and by your homepage, as I don't know who you are!
3P has no agreement with any company called Raha, not in Kenya nor in any other country. We did not give you any kind of permission to use images of our products, nor acting in our name or with reference to our company.

In case you would like to clarify this issue, I suggest you get in contact directly with me by e-mail.
From my point of view the SUSANA Forum is not the place for this kind of communication.

I hereby would like to point out that this kind of approach is completely against my convictions.

Jochen Scheerer

Dear Elisabeth, Jochen, Hajo and all
This conversation is interesting. Jochen’s responses inspire lots of confidence.

Jochen, you say that “Sani Solar is thought to be a solution for bigger sanitation projects were efficient logistics and fast implementation is needed (imagine to implement several thousand of units within one year, where each unit takes more than one day to be built up)”

We share this opinion and we, in collaborations with others, are doing SANI SOLAR along roads in Kenya (see www.raha.solutions). The project includes management/regulating usage.

We are doing it following directive by Kenya Ministry of Health that all service providers must provide their respective clients with toilets services for usage free of charge

Do we count on getting 1000+ units? Within what time frames would we get the units?

What other advantages should we count on?

Regards

Dear Elisabeth,

I would like to thank you for your initiative to generate a specific thread for Sani Solar, which we appreciate very much!

Regarding your questions about our company's profile/ activities, I will try to clarify the situation.

3P Technik is a technology provider, working since 1997 in the field of rainwater harvesting and storm water management. It was in 2007 when we where involved for the first time in a development project, at this time in Kenya where we provided equipment and technical consultancy for a project in which rainwater was harvested and treated as water source for a rural village.

From 2010 on, 3P is involved in a Brazilian Governmental project called "Agua para todos" (water for all), aiming to provide sanitation for the rural population of Northeast Brazil. Within this project, 1.000.000 rainwater tanks are to be built to provide water for rural households lacking any other kind of water supply. 3P supplies rainwater filters and other equipment to improve the quality of stored rainwater within this project.

It was in the context of “Agua para todos” when we became aware of the fact that there was no suitable sanitation technology available to scope with the conditions and requirements of such project, which basically are: Water scarcity, lack of infrastructure (water, energy, service), lack of sanitation (with corresponding impacts on public health and environment), large scale governmental project with its respective logistic requirements (transport, installation time...).

Finally, in 2014 we started, in collaboration with Brazilian stakeholders, to develop our own sanitation system, Sani Solar, designed with the aim to fulfil all of the specific requirements of Brazilian sanitation programs for the Northeast. The industrialized product was finished in December 2016.

Due to the unfortunate political and economical situation of Brazil, all kind of development programs where cancelled or frozen since the Impeachment of the former President Dilma Rouseff. Since then we’ve started to promote our technology worldwide.

We think that decentralized sanitation should be industrialized in order to be able to scope with the massive lack of access to sanitation, rather than individual approaches.

3P Sanitation is the most recent branch of 3P Technik, which still isn’t economically sustainable. Our aim is to find partners interested in local production of a scalable sanitation solution for onsite sanitation.
We are aware of the fact that sanitation has many cultural, political, climatic and other aspects and therefore we are open to adapt our system in collaboration with respective local stakeholders. All kind of comments/ considerations are very welcome!

We are also aware of the fact that technology is only one part of an effective and sustainable sanitation solution. That is why we would like to participate in debates regarding corresponding service chains.

Best,

Jochen

Dear Jochen, Hajo and all,

In my role as moderator, I have now split the posts specifically relating to Sani Solar out of the other thread that was about solar drying in general (forum.susana.org/comparisons-of-various-...in-the-feces-quickly).
It wasn't easy as some posts were overlapping in both directions but I hope I've done a good job. I think it's useful that Sani Solar has its own thread now. I've added links to the other thread in each direction.

Firstly, I would like to underline what Hajo said to Jochen:

thanks again for the again open and detailed information! I didn't always find commercial suppliers so open with information on the forum.

Thank you!

Secondly, I note you have only sold 16 units so far. Is this within your business plan or much lower than your expectations for Year 1? Or is this really Year 1? For how many years have you been going for?

I took a look at your comany's website: 3psanitation.de/about-us/?lang=en

Do I guess right that sanitation is so far a subsidised department within your company? Perhaps even its corporate social responsibility arm?
I read here on your website: www.3ptechnik.com/7-1-About-3P.html

Best Filters for the Best Surface Water Professionals
3P offers the largest range of filters for rainwater harvesting and offers an unique knowledge in stormwater treatment systems. Major manufacturers of the European and American market use the technology of 3P. We also offer a wide range of decorative rainwater tanks and water points for any garden setting. 3P products are also obtainable from the Japanese market.

Please tell us more about the business aspects of your sanitation arm, i.e. how "commercial" is it, or is more something that is funded by donations and grants? How did it happen that your company decided to branch out into sanitation in developing countries?

Regards,
Elisabeth

P.S. We are sometimes asked how to deal with advertising on the forum. In our rule we say that plain advertising is not allowed, but what I call "friendly advertising" is allowed and encouraged. Your responses are a perfect example of something that I call "friendly advertising", i.e. advertising one's product but also being open to suggestions and feedback from our users, and responding to questions. Thank you! I will use this thread in future as an example if someone asks me what kind of advertising we allow on the forum.

Hi Hajo,

regarding your considerations about urine mangement in areas with higher population density, I agree that the nutrient load is to big to be used on site in a sustainable way. Evaporation of the liquid components of the urine (at least partially) could help to minimize necessary storage capacity / frequency of emptying service.
I think that collection of urine in a peri urban area makes sense also from the treatment point of view.
For instance a production of struvite could transform the urine in a good form of fertilizer, easy to handle and to distribute, however you need a certain amount of urine to make this process economically viable.

Best
Jochen

Hello Thore,

related to the cost, please consider that this is the current cost of the whole system produced in Germany.
The Sani Solar concept is designed for local production and, if it would be feasible, the construction of the cabin on site may be done by local people. On the other hand, Sani Solar is thought to be a solution for bigger sanitation projects were efficient logistics and fast implementation is needed (imagine to implement several thousand of units within one year, where each unit takes more than one day to be built up).

The expected lifetime of Sani Solar, made by PE with Uv-stabilizator is far more than ten years.

In arid and semi - arid regions with warm or hot climate, natural evaporation rate easily comes up to 6 or more liter per day and square meter. Enhancing that rate by some technical features (steel plate, greenhouse effect and adecuate ventilation), the evaporation is significant. However, as this process is depending on climatic conditions, there should be a alternative for accumulation, management of the urine.

Best

Jochen