Camilla has posted this and asked me to move it to here:
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Please read an interview with Anne Ndunge who lives in Silanga, one village in Kibera Nairobi. She has been trained by Peepoople Kenya and is working like a saleswomen of the Peepoo toilet since 23rd of October 2010. She was interviewed by email for an article today 12/9 2011. See attached photo of Anne, mother of four children.

What is sanitation?
- Who is responsible for sanitation?
I believe that each individual is responsible for good sanitation. While the government has to work hard to improve sanitation in Kibera, I feel that is even more important that each person follows sanitary standards, like handwashing. For Peepoople, it`s people like me, sales women or CHWs that have to teach people about hygiene and sanitation. It`s our customers, however, that are important as they have to finally adopt what we teaching them.

- Why is sanitation important?
Sanitation is important, first and foremost because it`s a human requirement. Good sanitation prevents diseases like diarrhea (Kipundu) or typhoid. It is therefore requirement for health, and hence, for the advancement of the people in Kibera.

- Could the action of an individual improve sanitation? What should he/she do?
Yes, in our case the customer is actually the main person that improves his or her sanitation. More generally, people can improve sanitation by soap or keeping the house clean from dirt. Improving sanitation, however, can only be done in a group. If one person has bad sanitation or does not do hand washing, this will affect the others. Hence, if one person within one group doesn’t do it, everyone can suffer. We therefore try to talk to groups of people that share the same habitat, in order to have a real impact.

- What does a toilet represent for you?
A good toilet, in a sense is something that stops diseases. A bad toilet is a toilet that spreads diseases. A bad toilet is a dirty toilet. Dirty mostly because it is used by too many people – here in Kibera often by more than a 100 people per toilet. A good toilet, ideally, is used by only one person, and is available whenever you need it. The peepoo bag therefore is a good toilet that will stop diseases like diarrhea or typhoid.

- What type of toilet do you have at home?
I use the PeePoo – there is no other toilet in the plot.
- Why did you decide to focus your work on sanitation?
Because I want to explain to people what cleanliness is and how to fight the dirt, and help people live a better life through better sanitation.

- Which aspect of sanitation are you interested in improving? Where?
I am interested in improving hand washing because I feel that this could make the biggest impact. Hand washing not only after a person used the toilet but also when the prepare food, after they visited a sick person, when they change a child`s napkin. As explained earlier, sanitation is a group issue, and confronted with so many sources of infection, hand washing is the most important part of preventing sanitation related diseases.

- Who is your ruling model- who inspires-has inspired your work on sanitation?
I have been working as a CHW when the government and AMREF approached me to work on sanitation. That is when I first got into it. But the true change into sanitation came with Camilla from PeePoople. She made me passionate about improving sanitation. But she also acted as a teacher to me, who equipped me with the knowledge and the skills to teach people in Kibera about sanitation.

- How do you think you have contributed to sanitation through your work?
I contributed through teaching. Teaching mothers how to take care of their children`s sanitation needs, how to wash hands, to boil the water before they drink etc. Through Peepoople I contributed to sanitation by explaining to customers how to use it, how to keep it well when they used it, and how to wash their hands after they used.

- What is your next sanitation-goal?
My next goal is to further explain and to improve sanitation, to replace “flying toilets” and the cases of rape related to visiting a toilet at night in Kibera through using the Peepoo bags



- What has been the greatest contribution to sanitation in the last 10 years?
Although there have been many attempts to build public toilets, by the government and the CDF, but all of them where to expensive or closed too early (6 pm), so they didn`t make much of a difference. Peepoople has been much closer to the people. In fact, they offer people a toilet that is available, affordable and private – so I feel that at least for Kibera, Peepoople made the greatest contribution to sanitation within the last 10 years.

- How do you imaging will be the diffusion and level of sanitation in the world in 2015?

This is a difficult question, as I don`t know much about the sanitation situation in the world. I know that in Kibera that there will not be major improvements without the Peepoo. There is no place for toilet - if you want to build a toilet, you have to remove a house, where does this person go?
I think Peepoo has to continue, and the level of sanitation will be much better in 2015 – in Kibera and maybe in the world.

By the way, if any of the readers don't know what Peepoo bags look like or how they work, please see here:
www.peepoople.com (website of the Swedish company producing them)

Or photos here: (various, e.g. in Kenya)
www.flickr.com/photos/gtzecosan/sets/721...544/with/3179755130/
for example this one

Woman with a roll of peepoo von Sustainable sanitation auf Flickr

or here from a trial in a slum in Bangladesh (excellent photos by Ashley Wheaton):
www.flickr.com/photos/gtzecosan/sets/72157620750794055/

Five publications about Peepoo bags in the SuSanA library:
www.susana.org/library?search=peepoo

Regards,
Elisabeth

Dear Elisabeth,

Thanks for summerizing the questions. Some of these I need assistance from the office to answer since I am no longer on top of all questions. We are now many working in Sweden. I will send of some questions to my collegues to be answered later on.

It is a very good idea to let my team in Nairobi write instead. Right now Peepoople Kenya have 20 persons hired and all except 2 are from Kibera. I will try to arrange for future questions.


1. Kibera in the long run has no space for disposal of large quantity of Peepo bags. No sustainable management of huge quantity is in place.

No city, or urban center have space. That is why the Peepoo toilet was invented since there is not even space to build toilets in many informal settlements. The Peepoo works like a system where it is distributed and collected and brought out on daily basis. There is an economical incentative in all steps.
Right now we are planning the research on the reuse of the Peepoos with Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences (SLU) and University of Nairobi. Two undergraduate students already started in July investigating the reuse of the Peepoos in vertical gardens. How to make 50 and 90 Kg bags, how many Peepoos, how much water with different crops. The result will be manuals on how to grow with Peepoos in vertical gardens. It is already done in schools and at our office. From now on both Kenyan and Swedish students will be doing research on how to turn the used Peepoos into a fertiliser in best way. Both technicians, economists and agronomists will be involved.


3. The kenyan elite and politicians would see it as looking down at the dignity of the people. So far it is low key and even the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation has not shown any interest.

I would say there is not much interest in the world for poor people otherwise we wouldnt have these problems. People are starving in Africa and there is food close by. The problem is too big to even start talking about.
The Peepoo is a totally new way of solving the sanitation problem. As anything that is new some people like it and some dont, it is provocative to think new people tell me. What is important to me isnt if we, who have toilets like it or not, but the persons who are being helped like. And be sure, you cannot force anyone to use anything if they dont want to. In this case people are actually buying too.

4. The Ministry of Public Health and sanitation (lead Ministry in Sanitation) is also of the opinion (as expressed by Chief Public Health Officer during the launch of CLTS on 11.5.2011)that some houses in Kibera must be demolished to create space for bringing sustainable services in the area. All short term solutions have failed.
--> this one is not in contradiction with the peepoo concept - quite the contrary.

Urban slums are here to stay unfortunately. Perhaps they will demolish some parts in Kibera but it is quite impossible to reach each family with a home toilet (MDG goal). I dont see there is any contradiction, the Peepoo is not the only solution, there are many. All are needed. The lack of sanitation is overwhelming and people are suffering.


(3)
Transport: My GIZ collague from Burundi said that to transport one container of Peepoos from Mombasa to Burundi would be very, very expensive and would increas the price of a Peepoo considerably, making it way too expensive, even with subsidies. How many Peepoos fit into one container and thus how many containers would one need for a country like Burundi? The transport costs for these land-locked countries are very high. Or is the idea that ultimately there would be a machine in Burundi to manufacture them there (but then you still have to transport the raw material, i.e. the biodegradable plastic from BASF, to there).

I will make one of my collegues answer please.

(4)
Where will the new machine for making Peepoos be located? I think in Sweden, right?

In Sweden or in Germany. It is being developed in Germany. The first machine needs to be in Europe since it needs to be supervised closely. In future we plan to place them close to the market.

(5)
What is the name of the biodegradable plastic used in the Peepoos and what is the raw material for it (oil or starch?)?
--> do you agree with Jürgen's answer above? How well does it degrade in the soil, given that the bags are generally buried and not composted? Can you point us to a relevant report on this if you have one, please?

Will get back to you on this one too.

Best!

Camilla

Dear Camilla,

Thanks for your explanations.
(It would actually be great if some of your users could write about their experiences here - maybe this could be somehow facilitated? I know thy wouldn't have internet access etc. but maybe someone can transform their words into a posting?)

I would still like to draw your attention to some of our specific questions though (copied from above, and I have written under each question if answered or not; the first set of questions was from Patrick, the second set from me):

1. Kibera in the long run has no space for disposal of large quantity of Peepo bags. No sustainable management of huge quantity is in place.
--> answer still missing?

2. The bags would end up in our rivers the same way as the black polythene bags being used as flying toilets.
--> this has been answered because of your buying-back scheme.

3. The kenyan elite and politicians would see it as looking down at the dignity of the people. So far it is low key and even the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation has not shown any interest.
--> OK, this one is not really a question but an opinion. I think Doreen addressed this well above; more of a problem with the Kenyan elite (??).

4. The Ministry of Public Health and sanitation (lead Ministry in Sanitation) is also of the opinion (as expressed by Chief Public Health Officer during the launch of CLTS on 11.5.2011)that some houses in Kibera must be demolished to create space for bringing sustainable services in the area. All short term solutions have failed.
--> this one is not in contradiction with the peepoo concept - quite the contrary.

(1)
Why would a slum dweller buy a peepoo when they can use a normal plastic bag for free? (advantage of the peepoo: no odour for 24 hours after filling and closing with a knot; no holes in the plastic bag) My question to you all: are "normal" plastic bags really available abundantly for slum dwellers? (note that in Rwanda they have banned plastic bags since a few years and the ban is really enfored).
--> this one you have answered.

(2)
This issue about rapes when women and girls (and even boys?) go to the toilet at night: Is this really true and does anyone have real numbers or at least estimates? One of my colleagues who works as a consultant for GIZ in Kenya voiced doubts about this argument and stated that the NGOs tend to over-exagerate this problem - just like the number of residents in Kibera has been over-inflated by the NGOs - he said.
--> partly answered, I guess there are no official estimates.

(3)
Transport: My GIZ collague from Burundi said that to transport one container of Peepoos from Mombasa to Burundi would be very, very expensive and would increas the price of a Peepoo considerably, making it way too expensive, even with subsidies. How many Peepoos fit into one container and thus how many containers would one need for a country like Burundi? The transport costs for these land-locked countries are very high. Or is the idea that ultimately there would be a machine in Burundi to manufacture them there (but then you still have to transport the raw material, i.e. the biodegradable plastic from BASF, to there).
--> this one you still need to answer please

(4)
Where will the new machine for making Peepoos be located? I think in Sweden, right?
--> answer missing so far?

(5)
What is the name of the biodegradable plastic used in the Peepoos and what is the raw material for it (oil or starch?)?
--> do you agree with Jürgen's answer above? How well does it degrade in the soil, given that the bags are generally buried and not composted? Can you point us to a relevant report on this if you have one, please?

Thanks in advance!
Remember, Camilla, all these postings are searchable by Google, so in future you won't have to write it all again, just give people the link to this topic on our forum - how convenient.

Cheers,
Elisabeth

I am moving the most recent answer of Camilla Wirseen here, as it needs to be directly under Martina's last entry (but was posted under a new topic title). (EvM)

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Dear Martina,

Thank you for question and interest.

The project in Kibera is our first "launch project" where we will both demonstrate how the Peepoo sanitation system works on larger scale and experiment in the value chain of distribution, collection and reuse. When the highspeed unit is up and running in one year we will produce 500 000 Peepoos per day where most of the toilets are aimed for emergencies in both first and second phase. In fall 2012 we will start scaling up in Kibera to 20 000 users daily.

So the project in Kibera is a research project and of course the health, social impact, cost benefits are all being analyzed continously and this information we will be able to share. Will let you know.

Martina, when you say it is hard to imagine how the Peepoo system is working. What is hard to grasp? Would be very interesting for me to understand too. Please let me know so I can perhaps give you even more detailed information

Have a nice weekend
Camilla

Dear Camilla,

thanks for the detailed reply upon all these questions. I (and our whole team here in Eschborn) am following the peepoo bags with great interest. My impression is that again and again the same questions are raised regarding social issues such as acceptance and reservation of people, social attutitudes, usage of bags instead of toilets, the minimised danger of rape...

Are you planning to do some social research tackling these issues and measuring the impacts of peepoo bags? Or are you already doing this (e.g. getting basic data of the situation in the new parts of Kibera before you start working there)? I am convinced that many people won't believe it before seeing it with there own eyes as those bags are a complete paradigm shift. And as not all of us have the chance to visit Kibera, independent research results on those issues might help.

Yours, Martina.

Just wanted to make an important correction. Peepoople Kenya have brought out almost 60 000 used Peepoo toilets since start of project in end of October 2010. And we bring them out on daily basis.

Dear all,

Thank you Elisabeth for starting this discussion and sorry for having been out of the loop.

Many questions, let me try to reply to some to start with. But before let me just tell you what is happening right now in Kibera. I would like to claim we have a sanitation system up and running in an informal settlement. It is important to remember we do not see the Peepoo as a toilet but as part of a system.

Sanitation system up and running in Silanga
The Peepoos are sold by women entrepreneurs. They are selling about 20 000 a month in the village of Silanga in Kibera for 3 ksh. Single men, families, schools and daycares are our customers. To ensure the Peepoo is not thrown in the environement we offer a refund, we buy them back for 1 ksh at two droppoints. The collection points in Silanga are situated strategically for transport but also so no user needs to walk more than 3-5 minutes. The collection points are open in between 6-12. We have since the project started brought out about 60 000 Peepoos from Silanga on daily basis.

Research
The University of Nairobi and the University of Agricultural Sciences (SLU) in Sweden are performing studies on the used Peepoos. We have secured a storage and reserach area close by Kibera. Several ideas on how to use the Peepoo as a commercial fertiliser is going to be investigated. In the Peepoo sanitation system most toilets are being brought out after use. Some are today being used at the schools in vertical gardens and contribute to food security. We have more than 1500 school children who have the Peepoo available as a toilet.

Elders, impact and Government support
We work closely and have the strong support of the Elders in the village. Also the Chief of the area is helping. We often meet on their request as well as ours to ensure sucess of the project. The inhabitants as well as the councellor of Kibera who also is supportive and attended the launch say they can notice a difference since the start of the project. And all of us who work with sanitation know that of course, if the "shit" dissappears there is an health impact. The project has been introduced to all Ministries on different levels and I have also met some of the Ministers. The Minister of Nairobi Metropolitan sent a representative to the launch in October.

Rape of children
When it comes to rape and children this is not me or any NGO saying this but again the inhabitants. Actually I was shocked to hear. Apperently the small kids are being raped when going to the latrines during day time. But rapes happen all the time in informal settlements I have been told. In another slum Matumba in Nairobi the headmaster said his kids just gets dragged into houses as they pass by. So rapes unfortunately do happen. But, apperently since the children have a toilet at home they are less exposed.

Scale up
Two weeks ago we started moving into to neigboring villages. Our women had started getting customers coming over the boarder to buy so we meet the Elders in Machimoni, Laini Saba, Lindi and Soweto East. As with Silanga we first had to ask if we could establish our project within their village. The response from the Elders was very positive, one actually asked, "when are you starting? Tomorrow?" So now we are moving on the request of the users. Other informal settlements have approached us too but for now we are staying in Kibera.

The Peepoo solution now
If the Peepoo is a longterm solution or short term is a question often asked. As long as people dont have toilets it is needed. And I would like to claim we cannot wait, anyone living without a toilet is suffering. So the Peepoo is rather a contemporary toilet, a toilet that can help NOW.

The Peepoo versus a flying toilet
A flying toilet is a thin polythen bag. When used there is methangas that makes it explode. It has to be disposed of as fast as possible since it breaks but mostly smells and is very disgusting. I think bags are available in most slums Elisabeth. Josiah Omotto from Umande Trust, our partner, says it is actually being bought even to be used as a toilet during night. The need to go to the toilet is an urgent one.
So why are people today buying the Peepoo in Kibera? Well, it is made to be used as a toilet which a normal plastic bag isnt. So it is user friendly, nice material, functional. It is done of a material that is strong. But most importantly, it doesnt smell after use. So the user can keep it inside the house until morning. Can walk with it to the collection point. It is a clean way of collection.

These were some answers. I have defended the Peepoo project many times in conferences, in blogs. But I think the best way is not me talking of it but the people who are being helped, who are using it on daily basis. If you have the possiblity to visit Nairobi please get in touch with us.

I will get back to you and answer more questions. And please ask more, we never get tired of answering but perhaps dont have time to answer fast

Best!
Camilla (co founder)

muench wrote: (5)
What is the name of the biodegradable plastic used in the Peepoos and what is the raw material for it (oil or starch?)?

According to the BASF Sustainability Newsletter 5/2009 – manufacturers of the bag material – the “bags (are) made of BASF’s biodegradable plastic Ecovio. The plastic Ecovio consists of Ecoflex and of polylacticacid (PLA), which is obtained from corn. Ecoflexis a petrochemical-based polyester and is completely biodegradable. Eco-flex makes the bag flexible, tear-resistant, waterproof and suitable for printing”.

src: this is from HPMang in an earlier posting to EcoSanRes

But: "biodegradable" also means that it will have to rot for a longer time above a temp of 60°C (as far as I know), and any compost site for these bags will therefore have to maintain this temperature.

As for the buying argument: I think they should be for free, financed via advertisment on the bags which shows e.g. instructional guidelines or hygiene advice.

Last Wednesday I spoke about the Peepoo bags in a big GIZ-internal conference (called MATA) in a session on infrastructure for slums.

I used this session to make the point that sanitation systems need to be mobile for the worst of the slums, so that people can even take them with them if need be (dynamic nature of slums).

We spoke about the fact that many slums are now becoming legalised and that slum evictions are rarer than they used to be (apparently). However, there are also slums in areas where it basically will never make sense to build "real" technical infrastructure, i.e. those slums on very steep slopes or in swampy areas, areas that get flooded, very close to the railway lines etc.

Also Peepoos are a suitable solution for use at night time when going to the public toilet (if there is one) is too dangerous.

Some questions from my colleagues which I could not answer totally convincingly:

(1)
Why would a slum dweller buy a peepoo when they can use a normal plastic bag for free? (advantage of the peepoo: no odour for 24 hours after filling and closing with a knot; no holes in the plastic bag) My question to you all: are "normal" plastic bags really available abundantly for slum dwellers? (note that in Rwanda they have banned plastic bags since a few years and the ban is really enfored).

(2)
This issue about rapes when women and girls (and even boys?) go to the toilet at night: Is this really true and does anyone have real numbers or at least estimates? One of my colleagues who works as a consultant for GIZ in Kenya voiced doubts about this argument and stated that the NGOs tend to over-exagerate this problem - just like the number of residents in Kibera has been over-inflated by the NGOs - he said.

(3)
Transport: My GIZ collague from Burundi said that to transport one container of Peepoos from Mombasa to Burundi would be very, very expensive and would increas the price of a Peepoo considerably, making it way too expensive, even with subsidies. How many Peepoos fit into one container and thus how many containers would one need for a country like Burundi? The transport costs for these land-locked countries are very high. Or is the idea that ultimately there would be a machine in Burundi to manufacture them there (but then you still have to transport the raw material, i.e. the biodegradable plastic from BASF, to there).

(4)
Where will the new machine for making Peepoos be located? I think in Sweden, right?

(5)
What is the name of the biodegradable plastic used in the Peepoos and what is the raw material for it (oil or starch?)?

These were some of the questions I got. Hoping to read some answers here from the others soon.

Regards,
Elisabeth

I agree that the GoK has to reconsider the legal status of settlements in Kibera and other urban slums. It's this unclear situation that imo prevents other solutions which also require a better infrastructure (or is it that the Katwekera Biogas choo is so accessible for trucks to remove any digested sludge?).

Btw, here is a public list of (theoretical) pros and cons (prior to the tests in Kenya): saniblog.org/2010/04/30/the-peepoo-bag-system-top-or-flop/

"Desperate times call for desperate measures."
Ukweli!

Maybe we need to print (paid!) advertisement or messages from the Ministry of Public Health on the bags.

To start a discussion on Peepoo bags (or "peepoo toilets", which is the preferred term by the inventor, Anders Wilhemson) in Kenya, I am starting with some questions from Patrick Onyango (GIZ, Kenya).
I am posting his e-mail below with his kind permission (posted by Elisabeth von Muench).
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Dear Elizabeth,
Thanks for your email. Your concern for women and children especially with regards to use of public toilets in slums at night is right. However, Hagen and I had advised the lady from Sweden [Camilla Wirseen from Peepoople] from the beginning that the Peepoo even as a very temporary solution would raise both Political and environmental concerns:

1. Kibera in the long run has no space for disposal of large quantity of Peepo bags. No sustainable management of huge quantity is in place.

2. The bags would end up in our rivers the same way as the black polythene bags being used as flying toilets.

3. The kenyan elite and politicians would see it as looking down at the dignity of the people. So far it is low key and even the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation has not shown any interest.

4. The Ministry of Public Health and sanitation (lead Ministry in Sanitation) is also of the opinion (as expressed by Chief Public Health Officer during the launch of CLTS on 11.5.2011)that some houses in Kibera must be demolished to create space for bringing sustainable services in the area. All short term solutions have failed.

Kenya has to take the example of Zambia. Legalize these settlement, plan them properly and bring in services, facilitated by Government. Otherwise the current game done by many uncontrolled players will continue without any impacts being felt by the slum dwellers.

With kind regards,
Patrick

++++++++

And Patrick also pointed out to me today:

++++++
By the way the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation with the other major sector players are working on definition of what should be considered as a basic sanitation in Kenya. Peepoo bags are not even in discussion! But let us wait.

+++++++

What do you all think about this?