Some food for thought from my side:

On the developmental side there are the "old fashioned" programs that support local/national government in setting up regulatory structures, build sewerage/septage treatment plants etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with those, but they suffer from all the same issue any programs that work with often mostly defunct governments do. I think some smarter selection which governments to work with, and which not (i.e. less politically motivated funding by state donors) would help, but in the end it is an inherently slow process with few easily tangible outcomes.

Than there are the "sexy" market driven / demand creation programs. In theory those are great and you have some nice pilots that show good results, but rarely scale.
What I think people/donors need to realize is that such programs need a certain socio-economic base-level of the country to work. In some countries you can run 10 years of a great market creation program, and be easily still 10 years away from any self driven scale-up. Not because the program isn't working, but because the situation just isn't there (yet). However, those places that would greatly benefit from such programs are often excluded from donor funding because of middle-income country status or other self-defeating reasons like pro-poor strategies etc.

So NGOs end up doing serial grants in countries that are not well suited for such programs, simply because this is where the money is. Trying to change this by inviting the private sector into the same situation will either result in the private sector doing more or less the same not very efficient stuff as NGOs do, or them simply refusing to start/continue such an endeavor as they realize this will not become profitable/sustainable any time soon.

P.S.: Regarding patents... nothing inherently wrong about them and I agree that they are probably the least of a problem when it comes to sanitation. But their purpose it to protect investments into R&D, so if the research was in fact funded by an external donor I see no reason why they should allow a patent on the outcome; And in the long run it will probably prevent duplication by local producers, which is not what the external donor would want to happen.

Dear all,

I am starting this new thread for a broad discussion based on a suggestion by Chuck Henry here .

Chuck put forward the following questions for discussion:

There appears to be a move towards a market-based approach from the donor one of the past. How efficient have the NGOs been so far? Does this help bring in the private industry? Protection of technologies from copying has always been a pertinent issue – both from simple recovery of investment and also from assurance that copied products are of similar quality and not give a bad name to the original.

1. What has the industry accomplished and at what cost?
- what funding level for how many toilets?
- have patents (or other product protection) been the problem?

2. The move towards a market-based approach
- does this help private industry?
- does this suggest the NGO/donor approach isn't working

3. Do you find it unethical for companies to make a profit when they're serving the poor?

Diane Kellogg also sent me some of her thoughts by e-mail which are providing additional food for thought:

Some business owners are criticized for "making money off selling toilets to the poor," but I don't see any evidence of that. I can't name a toilet company that sells "off-grid toilets" to the poor that is profitable enough to be sustainable and scalable. NGOs, however, are making enough money to stay in business through serial grant funding. I notice that some of the big funders (USAID, DfID) have turned to private enterprise. Is this threatening to NGOs? or will they welcome the participation of private enterprise?

We have also existing threads which have touched on this, see here:

• Innovations and private sector: can they solve the sanitation problem? (started by Mughal, with inputs from Diane and many others): forum.susana.org/forum/categories/106-us...e-sanitation-problem
• How do we develop access to sanitation at scale and where are the most pressing intervention areas (a thread started by Roland Werchota): forum.susana.org/forum/categories/142-go...g-intervention-areas
• Where is the local government involvement in faecal sludge management and sanitation for the urban poor? (started by myself with inputs by Roland Werchota with inputs by many others): forum.susana.org/forum/categories/142-go...n-for-the-urban-poor

I am looking forward to a lively discussion on this topic from a multitude of different angles.
This would actually be a great topic for a time-bound structred "thematic discussion", we'd just have find a couple of experts who'd be willing to run and moderate such a thematic discussion (any suggestions or volunteers?).

Regards,
Elisabeth