Dear Detlef,

tank you for your advice, this kind of reminder are always very welcomed!
My PhD proposal fortunately was already accepted (one year ago); in that proposal and in my research I try to surf the line between what I want to do (benefit italian small communities) and what an engineering department requires. But still, the feedback I receive from the evaluation commission is that my work is not “engineering” enough. I believe that the reason lies in the fact that the sustainable sanitation concept is still not very known in the Italian research.

Thank you!
A smile
Nevenka

Dear Nevenka,

I am not sure, I am really in the right know-how position to advice to you on your upcoming Ph.D. proposal.

Based on my personal experiences, I can see a bit of "science"-conflicts for your self:

If you look "just" for the benefit of "small communities" (regardless of nation) you may go most as possible for very-very SIMPLE recovery systems, many people in this "small communities" might understand YOUR WORK without much explanation by "experts". But with "just" this approach, this systems proposed may not be over-complicated "enough" for being seen "scientific" by "colleagues" and possible copyrights will not emerge to make selfish money. In my opinion, therefore "colleagues" will not support your proposed approach...

At least what ever you do, keep your Ph.D. proposals (selfish "Open Source" = "Open Design" = "Open Access" and SIMPLE as possible, to allow "small communities" and even this "colleagues" just to copy YOUR WORK.

In short: be resourceful to "small communities" like many people in this sanitation-forum try to be.

Good Luck
Detlef

Dear Chris,

after your post, I tried to contact a person who was involved in the writing of the environmental Italian regulation and I hope to be able to talk to her next week and better understand what is allowed or tolerated in Italy.

About the Closed-loop Blackwater Recycling, I had already read your past post before and thought it may be a promising alternative to conventional systems. In fact, I included it in my list of "sustainable or ecological sanitation systems for rich countries" that I want to explore.

Thank you so much for all these feedback.
Nevenka

p.s. Coincidence: some weeks ago, I run into the web-site of Parque Etno-Botànico Omaere and I just realized you were one of the two names in the contact page! Wow, congratulations for the amazing project!

Hi Nevenka,

At the very least, it should be legal and acceptable to bury decomposed feces under some thickness of soil and to disperse urine via perforated hoses in the soil. The latter is not so different from standard leach lines from septic tanks, only without so much water pushing everything toward the groundwater and rivers.

Another great option for EcoSan in rich countries (but that apparently no one has done yet and you can be the first) is Closed-loop Blackwater Recycling. This would allow for biogas production in the Anaerobic Digestion (such as ABR) and production of grass for cows in Subsurface Treatment Wetlands. This also has the advantages of water conservation and avoiding entirely the contamination of rivers with treated or untreated blackwater, especially in terms of the pharmaceuticals that cannot be reliably removed. After this treatment, the water will be colorless, odor-free and safe with respect to infectious diseases, plus no one touches the water in the toilet bowl.
forum.susana.org/forum/categories/40-gre...-constructed-wetland

Good luck with your project.

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday

Thank you, you are right. I didn't study the EU regulation yet, I only analysed the Italian one, and here, unfortunately, it is not permitted. Thank you!

Well, that's not correct. According to the EU Regulation, reuse of treated faeces and urine is allowed, and in some countries forms of small scale ecosan are tolerated - Elisabeth has an ecosan system in her garden at home in Germany. In other countries, it is totally not permitted.

Dear Joeturner,

yes, I am looking for systems which are appropriate (what you defined as technically possible) in the EU and in Italy in particular. I know that the reuse of urine and faeces in EU is not allowed, and here in Italy we are still very far from accepting this concept. Anyway, I want to bring the attention of the Italian sanitation research on this topic, and this is the first reason I decided to do this Ph.D. even if its approach definitely differs from my Engineering Department way of thinking to sanitation and human development in general.

All the best,
Nevenka

Seems to me that you are asking for systems which are appropriate in the EU and in Italy in particular, Nevenka.

Of course, that's a big question: but there is also a difference between things which are "technically possible" and those which are easy to do in the EU due to (for example) EU Directive 86/278, which is about the use of human faecal wastes in agriculture.

Dear Elisabeth von Münch,

thank you very much for your reply. You made me think a lot!

When I wrote my Ph.D. proposal, I was focused on ecological sanitation since I was interested in enhancing the Italian isolated communities' self-sufficiency. After some interviews to communities members, I realized that often communities are not interested in resource recovery (and maybe sometimes it is not even the optimal choice), and, therefore, I decided to include sustainable sanitation systems in the MCA framework. Since they are not systems included one in the other, I refer to them as "sustainable or ecological sanitation systems".

For what concerns the distinction into "technologies for developing countries versus developed countries", I also think that many solutions proposed for the developing countries perfectly fit also in the "rich countries", and, therefore, I dug into the SuSanA resources and case studies to extract all the alternatives that I believe appropriate for the Italian context. I was just wondering if a collection specifically thought for sustainable sanitation for the developed countries has already been done.

Once I concluded the definition of the spectrum of appropriate sanitation trains, I will investigate each specific case study and, based on it, compare the sanitation systems (after having screened out the technically unfeasible alternatives, thanks to a set of technical criteria) by means of several sustainability criteria (I attached to this post the scheme of the criteria and indicators I selected).

Thank you again,
a smile and al the best,
Nevenka

Dear Nevenka,

I am a bit confused regarding what you're looking for. You said:
"sustainable and/or ecological sanitation systems" *

Joe replied regarding composting toilets, but that's just one of many options (as mentioned in the Eawag-Sandec compendium). Or are you specifically limiting your search to those?

Many of the technologies mentioned in the Eawag-Sandec Compendium are equally applicable to "rich country" contexts (however, they are not focussed on sustainable or ecosan systems in particular); similarly with the SuSanA case studies , they deal with examples of sustainable sanitation systems from many countries (mostly developing countries but also some non-developing countries).

Or are you referring more to cold climates (e.g. allowing the option of freezing toilets, see elsewhere on the forum about those by putting "freezing" in the search field)? Or to countries where effluent quality standards are really high and where highly-qualified maintenance staff is available and cost is not a major consideration (e.g. allowing options for household membrane bioreactor type systems?).

It's pretty important to know exactly what you're looking for and why.

The distinction into "technologies for developing countries versus developed countries" may not work so well anyhow, because some countries combine both worlds in one, e.g. South Africa I would classify as both a developing country and a developed country in one; same for India and Mexico, isn't it? Even e.g. Kenya or Zambia... Therefore if anything doesn't it make more sense to distinguish either by urban/rural or by climate or by ability to pay and expectation regarding service and effluent quality?

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Elisabeth

* As you're a PhD student who's diving into this topic deeply, please take a look at previous discussions where we pondered definitions for sustainable sanitation versus definitions for ecosan (not the same thing; check out also the two Wikipedia pages on these two terms): forum.susana.org/forum/categories/166-de...naries-mapping-tools

Thank you very much!

I am going to check this Finnish Association.

Have a nice day
Nevenka

Hi Nevenka,

I don't think such a scholarly compendium exists for "developed world" ecosan systems. There are a range of enthusiasts producing materials about composting toilets, but these rarely contain much that could be described as a "Multi-criteria analysis framework".

Have you tried looking at the Dry Toilet Association of Finland? You might find some researchers from Europe and North America featured in their recent conference www.huussi.net/en/