Improvements to Wikipedia article on septic tanks

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  • erkkisantala
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Hello Jan,

and sorry for a delayed answer, I have been without e-mail connection a few days.

The situation with such EN-standards that are mandated by the European Commission and based on the CPD/CPR is really confusing just at the moment. It is very difficult to explain more in detail, I don´t even try. But because the CPR is valid and must be followed in all EU countries since 1st of July 2013 and the CPD is past, I feel that is enough to relate only to the CPR.

Kind regards,
Erkki

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  • Elisabeth
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Dear Jan,

I asked James Heilman about the issue of red hyperlinks on Wikipedia pages leading to pages that don't exist yet in Wikipedia (which we spoke about above in this thread). For an example see screenshot below:



Here is what James answered:

"It is okay to have red links as long as the topic is significant enough to deserve an article.

It is a way to attract more people to editing. When Wikipedia started out there was a lot. I do not like them and typically will create pages for red links that should exists (or add redirects to an already established article were the topic is discussed).
"

By the way, James was recently elected to the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
(blog.wikimedia.org/2015/06/05/board-election-results/), something I am very happy about! It's good to have someone "high up" in Wikipedia who has an interest in sanitation. :-) James is the one who started the WikiProject Sanitation .

Regards,
Elisabeth
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
Freelance consultant on environmental and climate projects
Located in Ulm, Germany
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
My Wikipedia user profile: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EMsmile
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Awesome! It shows how quickly such an article can be set up by someone who knows something about the topic! :-)

I am researching your question about the red links to non-existing Wikipedia pages, will get back to you on that.

And yes, these types of articles about norms and standards also belong to the WikiProject Sanitation. Therefore, I have now added the article that you have created to this table:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProj...ion#Lists_by_content

I have also tagged it on its talk page as belonging to the WikiProject Sanitation (info for others: an article can belong to several Wiki Projects):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:EN_12566

And I am already learning a lot about these EN norms, thank you!
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
Freelance consultant on environmental and climate projects
Located in Ulm, Germany
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
My Wikipedia user profile: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EMsmile
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/elisabethvonmuench/

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  • jankn
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

We have a first version of a wikipedia article about EN 12566 now here , if you'd like to have a look at it.
Jan Knappe

Doctoral Researcher on environmental performance assessment and modeling of on-site wastewater treatment systems
Trinity College Dublin & University of Limerick
Email: jan.knappe(at)tcd.ie, Twitter: @JanKnappe

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  • jankn
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Hi all

Oh, I had no idea it was a French abbreviation. Interesting...

muench wrote: I noticed that you added some hyperlinks to other Wikipedia pages which do not exist yet (these come up as red). Was that done on purpose? I normally avoid doing that. For those EN standards, would it perhaps help to link to this Wikipedia article or to put it under "see also"?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_EN_standards

That was on purpose. I actually added EN 12566-1 to -7 into the (incomplete) list of EN standards and as it turns out, all of the EN's in the list link to respective articles, but only a small fraction actually has an article. I rather see the inclusion of links to articles that do not exist as a call to create those articles (it's like mapping what needs to be added); if you click on one of those "red links" it takes you directly to a page asking you to create an article there. But that might be just my personal opinion. Did you come across any wikipedia guidelines about this?

If we were to create first basic articles about the standards, would you deem them worth being included into the WikiProject Sanitation, Elisabeth?

erkkisantala wrote: I feel that a few words should be added on CE-marking and Construction Product Regulation (CPR). Without the mandate of EU based on CPR (earlier Construction Product Directive) there would not be any harmonized standards for all EU countries (actually also ETA-countries) to comply with.

Ok, this might be relevant to the history of how the EU came about with those regulations. As I am not really knowledgeable about the CPR/CPD/CE stuff (it indeed appears to be slightly confusing to a rookie like me), I'd like to clarify what the difference between CPR and CPD actually is before I feel comfortable adding it to the article. Is the CPD basically the old version of the CPR (as Erkki indicated)? Wikipedia itself says, that the CPD is a now repealed directive, but the information given on CPR is a bit sparse.

See here for CPD ,
and here for CPR .

So, would you prefer to relate to the CPD or CPR in the septic tank article, Erkki?

Cheers
/Jan
Jan Knappe

Doctoral Researcher on environmental performance assessment and modeling of on-site wastewater treatment systems
Trinity College Dublin & University of Limerick
Email: jan.knappe(at)tcd.ie, Twitter: @JanKnappe

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  • erkkisantala
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Hello again Elisabeth and Jan,

it is always good to write short, if possible. However, I feel that a few words should be added on CE-marking and Construction Product Regulation (CPR). Without the mandate of EU based on CPR (earlier Construction Product Directive) there would not be any harmonized standards for all EU countries (actually also ETA-countries) to comply with.

Hence, I propose to add one short sentence after the first leading sentence:
"According to the Construction Product Regulation (CPR), CE marking is mandatory for construction products, such as prefabricated septic tanks."

Link to the CPR could also be added to cmplete that new sentence.

This issue with standards, CPD, CPR and CE-marking is complicated and very difficult to understand for anyone. Even though the CEN working group (TC165/WG41) has been active over 20 years, there are still different opinions on how certain requirements should be written.

I also share the opinion that link to EN standards is a good one.

It would also be good to have a proper wikipedia article on the whole standard series of EN 12566, but I am not able to write a proposal. The present convenor of the WG41 is Marc Sengelin from France.

By the way, N in EN stands for Normalisation, in French, because the organization responsible is called CEN, Comité Européen de Normalisation. It of course has official names in English and German, but the abbreviation is based on the French name. The headquarters of CEN is in Brussels.


Greetings,
Erkki

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  • joeturner
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Most likely to come from the French Européen de Normalisation

see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Standardization

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  • Elisabeth
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Dear Erkki and Jan,

Thanks a lot for your contributions to the regulations sections of the septic tank article on Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septic_tank#Regulations). Much appreciated!

Jan: I noticed that you added some hyperlinks to other Wikipedia pages which do not exist yet (these come up as red). Was that done on purpose? I normally avoid doing that.

For those EN standards, would it perhaps help to link to this Wikipedia article or to put it under "see also"?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_EN_standards

Just wondering, I am a complete novice when it comes to EN standards. In fact, I don't even know what the "N" in the "EN" stands for. The E must be for Europe, I guess. The N is for "norms"? Then let's add it to our abbreviations list (with a hyperlink leading to where?): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abbreviations_used_in_sanitation

Kind regards,
Elisabeth
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
Freelance consultant on environmental and climate projects
Located in Ulm, Germany
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
My Wikipedia user profile: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EMsmile
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  • jankn
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Hello Erkki

Elisabeth was so nice to point me to your post here about the EU regulations for septic tanks. I have been helping to update the article over the last few weeks with some country-specific information regarding Ireland, France and the UK, and now, thanks to your help, with the overall EU regulation specifics.

I shortened the text about the sub-parts of the EN 12566 for the article, because I think that this could actually be the basis of a separate wikipedia entry about the standard itself.

You can find the most recent version here: Septic tank: Regulations

Feel free to scrutinize and add additional information. I guess it would be really beneficial if someone with more expertise about regulations in the US or Asian and African countries (...or in fact any other country) could contribute either here or directly in the wikipedia.

Cheers
Jan Knappe

Doctoral Researcher on environmental performance assessment and modeling of on-site wastewater treatment systems
Trinity College Dublin & University of Limerick
Email: jan.knappe(at)tcd.ie, Twitter: @JanKnappe

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  • erkkisantala
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Hello Elisabeth,

I forgot this issue for some time, but then gathered some information with the help of a collegue from UK. This is my proposal:

Under the heading "Regulations" I feel that the requirements concerning EU-countries should be added. Subtitle e.g. "European Union" and then the following text:

In Europe there are two sets of standards covering sewage treatment, EN 12566 in 7 parts for small systems up to 50 PE (person equivalent) and EN 12255 in 16 parts for larger plants. The main parts of EN 12566 are 1,3,4,6 and 7. These five European Standards are so called harmonized standards (hEN), mandated by the European Commission. According to the Construction Product Regulation (CPR), CE marking is mandatory for products falling within the scope of a hEN. The new format of CPR requires performance declaration of actual test results by manufacturers.

Part 1 is for septic tanks which are prefabricated and factory manufactured, of polyethylene, glass reinforced polyester, polypropylene, PVC-U, steel or concrete construction. Part 4 is also for septic tanks but in situ assembled from prefabricated kits, generally of concrete construction. Both variations of septic tanks require testing. They are tested using a special hydraulic test to assess their ability to entrap suspended solids. Their structural adequacy in relevant ground conditions is tested by a relevant test method or by calculation methods. At present there is no declared pass mark for the results of the hydraulic test.

Part 3 of EN 12566 covers small domestic wastewater treatment plants (packaged and/or site assembled), Part 6 covers prefabricated treatment units for septic tank effluent and Part 7 covers prefabricated tertiary treatment units.



The Construction Product Regulation of EU can be found here (I think this can be used as a citation somehow)
ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/europe...roducts/index_en.htm

How to give a citation for the standards is a bit problematic. Every EU-country has published them within their own standard series (like DIN, BSI, SFS, SS etc.), but they are not usually available electronically without a set price.

I am not registered to write on Wikipedia, so I think it is better if yoy add that information, if it is not a big trouble.


I hope this helps in getting wikipedia more up to date.

Summer greetings,

Erkki Santala
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  • Elisabeth
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Re: Information about septic tanks, emptying frequency, and Wikipedia article

Dear Erkki,

Yes, please. :-)
So far we only have some information about regulations for septic tanks in England and Wales:
en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Septic_tank#Regulations

(and I don't know how good that part is)

It would be great to have the additional information about prefabricated septic tanks sold in the EU added to the Wikipedia article. When you do (or when you tell me what to add), it is very important that we provide some sort of reference (source) for the information. Otherwise someone will add the {{citation needed}} tag (sometimes I add that tag myself just as a reminder that a source is still needed). It can be better than nothing. ;-)

Regards,
Elisabeth

P.S. Just wanted to stress again that the Wikipedia article on septic tanks is not yet that good. I have only done some bare minimum work on it but I hope that others will improve the article further.
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
Freelance consultant on environmental and climate projects
Located in Ulm, Germany
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  • erkkisantala
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Who is doing toilet and FSM product and technology design / R&D and what are you working on?

Hello again Elisabeth,

it is good that you have made some additions to the Wikipedia article on septic tanks. But one important aspect is still missing there, concerning regulations. Since July 2013 all prefabricated septic tanks sold in European Union countries must have a CE-mark and fulfill certain requirements based on European standards EN 12566-1 or EN 12566-4. I´ll try to persuade a British colleague from the standardization working group to write an addition to that Wikipedia article, he will do it more concisely than I could do.

Greetings,
Erkki Santala

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