Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs
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UDDT stands for urine-diverting dry toilet. UD stands for urine diversion.
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TOPIC: Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs

Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs 15 Feb 2013 23:27 #3507

  • bernhard
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hello everyone,

at EOOS Design we are currently working, together with Eawag on the RTTC Project ´Diversion for Safe Sanitation´. You can find some more information in this tread.

Now we want to provide the users with the best urine diverting squatting pan possible. As from what we have heard, seen and tested ourselves, it´s very easy to screw up here.
It would help us (and I think everyone else working in that field) to have a good collection of benchmark pan geometries to test prototypes against.

It would be super helpful, not only for us, if you could join in and share the plans or 3d CAD files of the squatting pan you developed or scan any good (or bad?) pan you have access to (for example with this free software: www.123dapp.com/catch )

Let’s share and together build the best urine-diverting squatting pan!

We´ll make a start and share our pan as well as a scan of a common Chinese pan:
link to the 3d geometry below the images

screenshot.jpg


screenshot.JPG



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Last Edit: 18 Feb 2013 18:53 by bernhard.
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 24 Feb 2013 23:02 #3553

  • muench
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Dear Bernhard,

I would like to help, but I am a bit confused about this 3D Scan thing.
Does it help you to have access to photos, can the dimensions be taken from there?
When I was at GIZ, we had compiled a list of manufacturers for urine diversion squatting pans and pedestals, so you can see a whole range there (probably you have already seen this document?). See here for the list of squatting pans:
susana.org/lang-en/library?view=ccbktype...p;type=2&id=1147

And of course there is the huge photo collection of SuSanA on flickr, see e.g. here a set on urine diversion squatting pans:
www.flickr.com/photos/gtzecosan/sets/72157626364669195/

But I guess photos don't help you and you need those scans? How can someone who has a urine diversion squatting pan in front of him/her get such a scan done?

By the way, what is your experience: my feeling is that for public toilets and schools the squatting pans are good, but for home use many people do aspire to sitting toilets (even if they are supposedly from a "squatting culture"). Sitting is often seen as the more upmarket way (even if health and hygiene issues seem to point as squatting as "superior").

Regards,
Elisabeth
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
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Frankfurt, Germany
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Last Edit: 24 Feb 2013 23:03 by muench.

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 25 Feb 2013 00:07 #3555

  • jkeichholz
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I'd prefer a design with the following details:
  • distance between urine bowl and faeces hole can be adjusted
  • hole size for faeces can be adjusted (e.g. inlay rings)
  • round edges for easier cleaning
  • easy method for closing all holes in order clean the surrounding area with fluids
  • some form of splash guard protection
  • overall optimal hydraulic discharge where applicable (~ cleaning)
  • coated surface


I like the idea of pooling an open source design for the optimal pan design. Could you provide any dimensions for the design? i.e. shape, size, etc.?

(I like the Flickr set Elisabeth linked to - most designs are still very rough, though, so the design approach makes a lot of sense, imo).
Juergen Eichholz
watsan eng.
water, sanitation, IT & knowledge management
www.saniblog.org
Last Edit: 25 Feb 2013 00:08 by jkeichholz.

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 26 Feb 2013 23:46 #3617

  • bernhard
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Dear Elisabeth,
Thank you for your help! Yes, I know the document. Also the SuSanA flickr account is a very valuable resource for us!

regarding 3d scanning: there are several possibilities but with 123d catch its fairly easy. And the software is free.
Basically you take a bunch of photos of an object, about 40+, from all sides. 123d catch then turns them into a three dimensional object. Works a bit like making a panorama picture...
There are a bunch of explanatory videos on their website as well: http://www.123dapp.com/howto/catch#videos

Dear Jürgen,
Thank you for your feedback and input!

I totally agree with round edges, easy method for cleaning (with fluids), splashguard respectively easy discharge.
Could you explain in a bit more detail the ideas about flexibility in feces hole and distance to urine part of the pan?
The reason why I´m asking is because up until now I was thinking: Feces hole - the bigger the better as long as ventilation still works and there is no danger for children to fall into it..
And on distance between feces hole and urine area: the feedback, especially from female users was: the smaller the better. Sure - the urine area (bowl) has to have a certain size but shouldn´t it start right in front of the feces hole to be able to catch all the last drips?

Maybe we are missing something here so I´m really looking forward to reading your thoughts on this.

According coating of the surfaces: I agree but it’s a difficult thing. We are looking into that as well but we believe that first the geometry must be the right one. The coating can only make it better, but it´s not a silver bullet.


@ sitting vs squatting: well - we also had long discussions But the feedback we got in Uganda was a clear "pro squatting" if the toilet is used by more than a very (very!) limited number of people. So we will focus on squatting for now.

concerning dimensions: sorry - you´re right.
I just added a plain 2d drawing of the thing with dimensions to the dropbox folder were you can also find the complete 3d CAD files. (link in first post)

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edit: these dimensions are our current work in progress. they are by no means to be iterpreted as a good squatting pan ..yet.
some things to improve on:
- the narrow area between the heels is to narrow (its too easy to pee on that area)
- footsteps should be placed further apart
- flush-channel needs to be closed in the middle so water can´t enter the bowl dead-center (to prevent splashing over into the feces hole)

+ positive felt the thin "line" between feces hole and urine area (but that might be up do discussion - see above)
+ positive was also that due to the flush there was far less urine odor compared to our chinese pan.

more tests, assessments and improvements to come...
Last Edit: 27 Feb 2013 00:02 by bernhard. Reason: comment to dimmensions + pros & cons
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 28 Feb 2013 01:46 #3653

  • Amos
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This may be wonderful for squatting toilets!

Yet I wish somehow someway people could slowly be turned to seat toilets. I seen one vido where a person after sitting on a seat stool then placed his feet on a tall bench to by that means attain a bit of the squating position. Seat toilets rather than squatting holes allow more room for the waste without digging a hole or building a higher toilet structure. Only the more weathly should be able to afford sqatting toilets and they likely don't want them. Surely some old people and crippled people need seat toilets, and why cannot others use them as the fact that old and crippled people need them, prove they are easier to use.

Some of my thoughts
Blessings

Amos Bender
Amish background. Natural born questioner, researcher, and developer.

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 28 Feb 2013 11:39 #3659

  • Florian
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Amos wrote:
Yet I wish somehow someway people could slowly be turned to seat toilets.


There are also people who think the other way round and try to convince people that squatting is better (e.g. healthier) than sitting. You can even buy stools that turn a sitting toilet in a squatting toilet, e.g. this one.

But my opinion is that we (sanitation practitionners, experts, consultants etc.) should not try to change people's preferences in this sense, but rather understand what is important to them and offer solutions that are well accepted and percieved as comfortable by the users.

So if in the case of the Eawag project, the users (in Uganda) clearly expressed the wish for squatt toilets, it is certainly the way to go. Of course the resulting toilet may not work so well in contexts where people prefer sitting toilets.
Florian Klingel
Water and Sanitation Specialist at Skat Consulting Ltd.
Last Edit: 28 Feb 2013 11:42 by Florian.
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 06 Mar 2013 17:01 #3784

  • Amos
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Hello SuSan Readers,

I wanted to share a quite different squat toilet design that I was thinking about and created with Google Sketchup. The unique gate remains inside the urine pan and acts as part of the urine pan and is only (slide ahead) opened for defecating. Except for defecating and all other times this gate both blocks the solid waste area as well as increases urine diversion. The pros are it obstructs odor and the unsightly, and increases urine diversion. The con is it needs opened for defecating and which some might forget. Yet the gate then could easily be tipped up with the handle and the feces dumped through the opening. Obviously if people are careless even without a gate, feces can make a mess. The open and close lever could be attached to the back side of the gate if desired. Your comments or suggestions are very welcome.

Blessings
Amos





Amish background. Natural born questioner, researcher, and developer.
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 07 Mar 2013 00:27 #3789

  • bernhard
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Thanks Amos, Thanks Gerwin (and the whole TU Delft crew ; )

wow - super cool stuff. Thanks for sharing!

Gerwin, at the moment we do not use any statistic data. Only our friends and colleagues. ...and not everyone of them is used to squatting.
I wasn´t familiar with the work of Chakrabarti - did he also work specific on the toilet squatting posture?

plug and play reminds me of the ideas Jürgen had (see above post #3555) with adjustable distances and sizes

Amos, I really like the idea of the lid. Decreasing the size of the hole or closing it completely really helps with odor. Lately we did some experiments with a rotating lid but its tricky as well. Subjectively it feels more "dirt proof" to me than a sliding mechanism. I think big tolerances and contact area, like in your design, is a good approach.

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 07 Mar 2013 10:45 #3795

  • jansengerwin
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Bernard,

Here's the book where our team member got the data from.
books.google.nl/books/about/Indian_anthr...MAAJ&redir_esc=y

I don't have a full copy here, but I can see if I can get it through our team member. As I understand the data relates to squatting. There is, however, no data for children in that book. That's why we collected it ourselves.
I understood EAWAG/EOOS is focusing on people in Uganda? How inclusive is your design? All ages, genders, disabilities, etc.?

Maybe it's a good idea to make a list of resources for squatting anthropometrics & ergonomics:

- Chakrabarti (1997): Indian anthropometric dimensions for ergonomic design practice
- Alexander Kira: the bathroom
- Johan Molenbroek: A Friendly restroom, developing toilets of the future for disabled and elderly people
- dined.io.tudelft.nl/dined/full (this is our database for international measurements; no squatting dimensions here, but all the other postures and body features you can find here)
- ...


I hope we can make this list a bit longer together with you guys!

Cheerio,
Gerwin
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 07 Mar 2013 16:18 #3800

  • Chantal
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  • i​​​​​​​​´m a designer at EOOS. Together with Eawag and in the BMGF / RTTC project we work on UDDT and even more acronyms.
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Gerwin
Thank you for the post.
The book sounds very interesting, so we wait for it

Yes at the moment we are focusing on people in Uganda, and we´re trying to make a design for all ages of course focus on adults.
Maybe there will be a kind of grab rails that helps older people or disabled, to stand up or going to squatting.

At the moment I really think about the diversion how high it has to be, that it´s good enough to control the diversion but it should still be comfortable.

Currently we try to lead to the correct position via the footsteps. The splash guard gives some guidance as well, but the footsteps are more important. What do you think?

I really like your posts, keep going!

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 07 Mar 2013 17:12 #3803

  • bernhard
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one additional anthro resource for kids: ovrt.nist.gov/projects/anthrokids/

alexander kira - jep: a wonderfull book! sadly it´s very hard to get. We have one and plan to make a "backup copy" the next days... pm me...

I have to look into the other books & dined

Thnx

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 07 Mar 2013 21:18 #3807

  • Amos
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Thanks to you all for your encouragement. As I said in another post this is a wonderful forum to share our ideas and thanks to those who started and are running it. As also stated before feel free to copy any of my designs or features I have shown here or in other of my posts. Although I would be pleased to be informed if someone does want to copy something, that is not so important, while helping those who need it is.
Amish background. Natural born questioner, researcher, and developer.
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 08 Mar 2013 11:40 #3812

  • jansengerwin
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I just came across this technology review report on urine diverting dry toilets. Definitely worth taking a look at.

www.susana.org/lang-en/library?view=ccbk...mp;type=2&id=874
Last Edit: 02 Apr 2013 16:23 by muench.

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 08 Mar 2013 13:20 #3815

  • jyaltd
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Emmanuel Kankam-Boadu
Tema,Ghana-West Africa
email: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

I think this toilet design project can help we at the developing countries in some areas like our local communities, schools, market and lorry parks as well as other places.Thank you very much for your input.
ekb

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 12 Jul 2013 18:23 #5034

  • bernhard
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update update

...just uploaded the 3d files of the UDDT-Flush Pan we used in our last field test in Uganda.
It features a foot operated lid, that allows for wash-water collection. Once the pan gets flushed the lid automatically closes (electronically at the moment, but we think abour making it mechanically in the future)

How´s it going fellow designers? Anything new to share?

best regards
bernhard

03_pic_01.png



Note by moderator: see also related thread here:
forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-mis...oilet-solutions#4395 and
forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-mis...oilet-solutions#4463
Last Edit: 18 Jul 2013 11:44 by muench.
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Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 01 Aug 2013 16:37 #5191

  • bernhard
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Hello Hello
and another update;
I added another 3d scan of a UDDT Pan to the dropbox. We found it on a local market in Kampala, Uganda during our field test. It´s a injection molded piece. Not the best quality but ok. 770g of PE (I think - might be PP as well?)
Looks like there is a lid missing for the feces but I can´t confirm. This is how we bought it and the guy at the market also din´t have more information on the pan.

IMG_4651.JPG


Dimensions.PNG


Whats up fellow designers? I need a bit of support here! Anyone willing to share some information?

Cheers
Bernhard
Last Edit: 01 Aug 2013 16:41 by bernhard. Reason: typos

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 18 Oct 2013 08:33 #6040

  • MichaelCarr
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  • From Liverpool, UK. Background in military, engineering, education & sales. Published author. Write novels, illustrated children's books, film, TV script. Interest in eco living, have a created a four-part off-the-grid living system and a UDDT.
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Hi Amos: long time no hear from you. How you doing?

The seat/pan design above is great and very close to my own human8ture figure of 8 design concept. What I want to achieve with my system is to enable people to sit or squat. That is why I have container system that does not require a hole in the ground. Old/infirm/pregnant ladies etc like to sit. Squatting is a major tradition though in Asia and Africa since beginning of time. I have just had another idea to stabilize the container for squatting. That is to have some 'wingdings' /step ups on the sides that fit flush to the floor and hook into the sides.
I am in discussion with United World College students to take on this project for R&D
fingers crossed
If you've got any ideas for how I can develop the top seat part please let me know
ie; materials / how to do
hope you are well Amos - cheers

human8turesketchup.jpg

Re: designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! 18 Oct 2013 08:54 #6041

  • MichaelCarr
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  • From Liverpool, UK. Background in military, engineering, education & sales. Published author. Write novels, illustrated children's books, film, TV script. Interest in eco living, have a created a four-part off-the-grid living system and a UDDT.
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Hi there: I think this is a great design. If I may...
The faeces hole could be oval, bigger and deeper (further back)
The fall-off area directly in front of the rear hole could be much deeper to act as a splash back to prevent urine going into rear hole - and to accommodate male parts
The area surrounding the back hole could be concave - so that any urine does not settle on the surface but falls into feaces section - (a tiny amount of urine won't matter)
Yes - the 'neck'in the middle could be wider

My remarks are based on my idea for the top 'seat' of my product and base to be made of metal (recycleable, lightweight, storeable, transportable & mobile)

Research Log 27 Mar 2014 05:29 #7991

  • bernhard
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I'm delightet to inform you that the collection of toilet designs and technologies that we gathered over the last years at EOOS Design,
during our work on the Blue Diversion Toilet, just got published by Loughborough University.

It is a incomplete collection of interesting stuff that might be helpful for ever designer working in that field.

Here is a link where you can download a pdf for free:

https://wedc-knowledge.lboro.ac.uk/details.html?id=21302


cover.jpg



Bernhard
Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014 08:36 by muench.
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Re: Research Log - compilation of contemporary toilet designs 27 Mar 2014 08:51 #8000

  • muench
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Dear Bernhard,

Thanks for posting the link to this document. I had a quick look at it, and I must say I am totally amazed at the beauty of the illustrations and at the wide variety of toilets included! Congratulations to all involved.

These illustrations are amazing. You told me that the original document had photos in them and it was decided to convert the photos into illustrations/drawings. This gives the publication a very "uniform" and professional feeling, so I congratulate the editor (Rod Shaw) and illustrator (Ken Chatterton). (was a software program used that can convert a photo into an illustration?)

I probably wouldn't have called it "contemporary toilet designs", I don't think this title fits very well, as the book also includes treatment aspects and many toilets that are more on the "research" side, rather than what I would call "contemporary".

It is noticeable that most of them use urine diversion. I don't know whether that's coincidence, or a trend, or whether you focussed on urine diversion because you knew that's what you wanted for your Blue Diversion Toilet (forum.susana.org/forum/categories/106-us...12&start=24#7964)?

It reminds me a bit of the "Encycloopedia" by Kory Russel and Sebastien Tilmans which is also very nice:
forum.susana.org/forum/categories/141-ot...s-all-out-there#6400

Thanks again for sharing your research log in this format.

Regards,
Elisabeth
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
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Re: Research Log - compilation of contemporary toilet designs 27 Mar 2014 12:01 #8002

  • Rod
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Thanks for your kind comments about the book and the illustrations. We are aware of its shortcoming too and we see this as a starting point hoping that others will come forward with other designs, particularly those which consider the needs of disabled users. If there is sufficient response we will consider producing a second or revised volume in due course.

Rod
Last Edit: 27 Mar 2014 12:21 by muench.
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Re: Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs 21 Sep 2014 11:29 #10252

  • bernhard
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just wanted to give everyone a heads up that Paul Mackereth - the designer for the Loughborough RTTC team - also shared information and CAD files on the interface he developed. Thanks Paul!!!

here is the link:
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Note by moderator: Or see here on the Forum where Paul recently posted his "LuLoo Concept Pack":
www.forum.susana.org/forum/categories/14...u-develop-it-further
(just to avoid confusion because it is in this sub-category on Urine Diversion: the LuLoo Concept Pack is without urine Diversion)


LuLoo.PNG
Last Edit: 21 Sep 2014 13:57 by muench.

Re: Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs 21 Sep 2014 11:43 #10253

  • bernhard
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And another update:
I added the latest CAD files from the pan geometry to the dropbox (links in the first post in this thread)
This is the thermoformed and fiberglass reinforced prototype geometry as it was used in our 2014 field test in Nairobi and shown on the RTTC Fair in Delhi.

screenshot_00.PNG


screenshot_01.PNG


...and a final side note: similar to quite a number of "RTTC designers" I´m sorry to tell you, I had to leave the project. I will miss my BlueDiversion Team at EOOS and Eawag and the wonderful time we spent together working on this toilet. All the best for the future!
I hope to stay in the field of sanitation or at least human centered / social design so I will definitely keep my account here for now!
Last Edit: 21 Sep 2014 13:54 by muench.
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Re: Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs 26 Sep 2014 06:13 #10311

  • CeciliaRodrigues
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Hi Bernhard,

Thank you for the initiative of creating the drobpox folder! Let me ask you a question before you leave. I am wondering if during your research you came across a similar compilation (dimensions, technical drawings) regarding pedestal or cartridge models.

I also find this other thread very useful, forum.susana.org/forum/categories/141-ot...-all-out-there#5738, as well as the google doc: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtT...p;usp=sharing#gid=0, but still there are hardly any detail.

I am working on a UDDT project in Brazil and I would like to make a small model in scale (at least of the toilet seat with the diversion feature) to address communities. We have cards with pictures and drawings but since it's a quite new technology for most of us here, I suppose the model would communicate better.

Any hints would be very helpful.

Thank you!

Kind regards, Cecília.
MSc in Urban Management

Re: Designers, inventors, tinkerers... unite! (urine diversion squatting plates) - publication Compilation of contemporary toilet designs 29 Sep 2014 23:40 #10331

  • bernhard
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Hi Cecilia,

Thanks for sharing the link to the other tread - I was a aware of the doc but havn´t had a look at it for quite some time - very cool how much more information was added in the meantime.

I´m sorry I don´t have any useful 3d data of a sitting UDDT. We did some experiments with urine diverting sitting bowls but even this was not very satisfying. I´d ask re.source / sanivation / mosan (Mona).

PM me if you need help contacting them.

edit: or Ghanasan/Clean Team...
Last Edit: 29 Sep 2014 23:42 by bernhard.
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