SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:27:26 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Re: NaWaTech Compendium of Technologies avaliable on SuSanA library - by: pkjha http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10611 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10611
I have just gone through the book particularly the chapters dealing with waste water treatment. It is collection of available technologies. It mentions technologies – ABR, Anaerobic filter, SBR, MBR, MMBR, biogas technology, and sludge drying beds- planted and unplanted and others. It lacks technical details of the technologies mentioned. Some chapters on water and waste water have been written by Ecosan Services Foundation with examples in India.
Under references, it mentions book on Compendium of technologies by EAWAG/ SANDEC. Regarding Sludge drying beds for septage management, information available in the book by EAWAG/ SANDAC is much more and practical than this book.
The book may be useful for those interested in the field. I could not find the cost of the book.
It took about 2 hrs to download the book.

Pawan]]>
New publications Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:26:19 +0000
Re: NaWaTech Compendium of Technologies avaliable on SuSanA library - by: lucia http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10604 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10604
thanks for your note. Indeed the file is quite large, as the book includes many fotos, drawings and full graphic design. We are working on a revision, so we´ll try and have a lower resolution version in the comming months, which we will of course share with you.

The NaWaTech Compendium covers specifically the case of India, and includes specific chapters about the water situation in India, and examples of previous experiences in India in each technology factsheet. I invite you to have some patience downloading the file and check out the book, it would be really nice to hear your comments on the content.

As for our project website (www.nawatech.net), it´s currently down but our IT department is working on it and should be up again in the coming days. There you will find the Compendium (exaclty the same file) as well as many other reports, since our results are public, so please log in in a couple of days!

Best regards,
Lucía

Lucía Doyle (M. Eng.)
Team Leader International/Renewable Energies-biomass & biofuels

ttz Bremerhaven
Wasser-, Energie- und Landschaftsmanagement
Fischkai 1 - 27572 Bremerhaven – Germany
Phone: +49 47180934 155
Fax: +49 471 809 34 599

Email: LDoyle@ttz-bremerhaven.de
Web: www.ttz-bremerhaven.de

„autorisierte KMU-Beratungseinrichtung des BMWi“]]>
New publications Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:00:09 +0000
Re: NaWaTech Compendium of Technologies avaliable on SuSanA library - by: F H Mughal http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10595 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10595
F H Mughal]]>
New publications Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:34:03 +0000
Re: NaWaTech Compendium of Technologies avaliable on SuSanA library - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10584 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10241-nawatech-compendium-of-technologies-avaliable-on-susana-library#10584
I was just trying to look at the document you mentioned here (Compendium of Technologies) but when I tried to open it, I found it is 250 MB large!?
This seems way too large for something you want people to download and read or is it more the printed version that you are trying to disseminate rather than the softcopy? (even I stopped the download and I am on a fast connection...)

Could you tell us how it differs from other similar pulications like the Eawac-Sandec Compendium of Sanitation Systems Technologies? I guess yours is specific for India? Does it include data on costs?

I did a quick Google search to try and find your project's website but this link did not work:
www.nawatech.net/

I got to it from the seecon page as seecon was one of your partners:
www.seecon.ch/en/projects/nawatech-natur...hortages-urban-areas

Anyway, I look forward to hearing more from you what the outcomes and learnings from this project in India were.

Regards,
Elisabeth]]>
New publications Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:02:12 +0000
Re: Ben Re: Cambodia experience - WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: ben http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10518 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10518 [Start of Page 2 of the discussion]


Dear Dennis,

Thanks for joining in.
If I may ask, could you please tell us a bit more about your background, your organisation, your experience, etc ...

I'll let others orientate you better on "Are there specific Aid & Development Sector "Programme Design and Project management" skills workshops (preferably good quality online ones) out there to improve the Programme quality and effectiveness?". (moderator's edit: this has now been posted here: forum.susana.org/forum/categories/54-wg-...ter-project-outcomes)
That's what this forum and the great work from people running it is all about.

For the Cambodian projects, here are a few links on the biggest san-mark programs there :
IDE hits 100 000 latrine sales
Watershed website

Best,

Ben]]>
New publications Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:01:01 +0000
Ben Re: Cambodia experience - WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: denniskl http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10489 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10489
(where located, what the projects are called, who is running them (and contact details), what - if any - Government departments (at national, provincial, district, commune and / or village levels) are involved, any M & E reports etc?

I will be in Cambodia soon for some other activities and I want to understand if we can include already proven sanitation approaches in-country

Otherwise, maybe email me? This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it


[End of Page 1 of the discussion]]]>
New publications Mon, 13 Oct 2014 00:00:12 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: denniskl http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10488 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10488
I just wanted to add that I can see both points.

Big = Scale; Small = Innovation

The multi nationals have the experience of scale (for good and bad! and the funding and lobbying power to change national and intra-country policies. This applies to sanitation issues as well as any other product or service topic you can think of

Small NGO's (the good ones) tend to have innovative ideas, and often field trial concepts and products successfully, but with little experience, knowledge or resources to "build-for-replication" or to tinker for scalability, their innovative approaches tend to stay "in the field" and never make a larger stage.

So the ideas are on one side and the money and power is on the other - the challenge, of course, is to bring them together in ways that (hopefully) do more than "Do no harm" and in fact "Do the good" they are meant to.

The real reasons for "collateral damage" programme results

In many cases I believe the issue is not that corporations (or the people who run them) set out to make problems or cause the "collateral damage" to the people or the environment etc; I think it is often the failure by Programme developers and promoters (such as NGO's, Foundations, philanthropists, etc) to properly design programmes that take all the relevant factors into account (environmental, cultural, stage of development, education levels, health issues, etc)

And this failure happens on both sides.

Large companies have managers who know how to design for commercially oriented, large scale project deployments (that usually merely comply with required national standards) and small orgs lack the project design, scope and management skills to properly account for the issues that projects face on the ground.

Is Better Programme Design the Answer?

I think properly researched, well-designed, all sector programmes (that take a serious look at what are the real problems, and what are the best combination of solutions to suit) will get an appreciative audience (and funding and resource support) from the multi nationals.

Yes, they will always have their own political and commercial agendas but these can be massaged to give all parties a reasonable outcome - and most importantly for the recipient groups, the results that are promised:)

Programme design and project management skills training for the Aid and Development Sector

And if better programme design (and better project management skills) is one of the answers, how is this capacity building among the smaller NGO's to be done?

Are there specific Aid & Development Sector "Programme Design and Project management" skills workshops (preferably good quality online ones) out there to improve the Programme quality and effectiveness?

Thoughts?

Happy to engage with the group on how these types of improvements to programme design and project management can be developed, systemised and deployed among the Aid and Development sector workers]]>
New publications Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:51:01 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: ben http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10482 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10482
Thanks for joining in.
Again, I don't want to paint a black and white picture over this subject.
Maybe I've been too much influenced by the sani-markets programs in Cambodian in which the foundation were the fact it could be reproduced locally.

My main concern is about monopoly and long term repayement for corporations' strat-up investment. In a few years time once unicef strongly helped Unilever control 80% of the soap market in the developping world, owning distribution points and import-export mechanisms ... It would be very sad if they suddenly rise their price and we would therefore see some NGO seeking funds to "subsidize soap delivery because it's too expensive for the people". These monopolies are extremly damageable for populations, Monsanto and its control of the seeds worldwide being probably the scariest.
I have no doubt that using the unilever non-ecological toilet additive was a sine qua non condition to finance the clean team program. Let's learn the maximum from their service delivery model, which can apply in many cities if proved viable, but I sincerly have little hope on what good things Unilever can bring ?

As everyone is often repeating in this forum, we need loads of innovative products and services. I'm glad WSUP oppened this door and I hope we'll be able to all learn from their experience. However, at the size of a country I beleive it will always be far more beneficial for the market (viability / adaptation / sustainability) and the users to make the maximum locally. Unlike mobile phones, toilets systems are almost all made of pretty simple materials (plastic / fiber / cement / soil / etc ...). I totally see it pertinent to import small pieces (like the Sato latrine pan) but I totally disagree on the idea of shipping the whole thing from china to save 2 cents. Add to that the poluting toilet additive they use, in the case of Clean team project, and I think the losses for local business and the carbon footprint generated makes the program overall questionable.

To finish, in Cambodia we realise that from a village to another different preferences were notable (tiles or not on the pan, 1 or 2 lined up pit, superstructure or not, complete service or minimum one, etc ...). The organic evolution of a market, where the mason lives less than 20 km from the client, is amazing. In just a few months, the products evoluted significantly, adapting to the area's preferences and much better penetrating it. The less production is centralized, I believe the more adapted will be the product, even from a village to the other.

Best,

Ben]]>
New publications Sun, 12 Oct 2014 11:48:01 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10471 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10471
Interesting things that are being discussed in this thread now, thanks to you, Kris and Simon so far. I just have a quick question back to you:
Even if the toilets that are used in the GhanaSan project in Ghana (I believe they now call it Clean Team Ghana rather) are manufactured in China and then transported: does that necessarily have to be a bad thing? Is it a "must" that they should be manufactured locally? I don't know if the mobile phone analogy holds but for mobile phones we don't care where they are produced, we are happy when people can use them to better their lives in low income countries. It's the service that they provide which we care about, not the number of jobs created in country X to make the mobile phones.

About the Clean Team project (WSUP) that you mentioned, we have a separate thread here for it:
forum.susana.org/forum/categories/52-mob...al-sludge-management

Perhaps we should discuss further specifics about their project there?

Like you, I am also disappointed by the lack of responses by Clean Team when asked about that chemical that they add to the toilet (and other details). I have tried to encourage them via twitter and e-mail but the bottom line was (if I understood correctly) that they see it as a "business secret". Well, so be it. Whether this approach can be scaled up to reach hundreds of thousands of people, I don't know. I think it can only work if the local government is involved at the appropriate critical points.

By the way, this is the Clean Team Ghana website:
cleanteamtoilets.com/
(mind you, either there is something wrong with my browser or they don't have much information on their page)

This blog post that Alison linked to in her last post seems more interesting:
www.wsup.com/2014/05/12/the-kumasi-smell...rt-and-installation/

Regards,
Elisabeth]]>
New publications Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:14:15 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: ben http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10469 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10469
I'm very glad you are back so we can follow this discussion.
I beleive same sorts of discussions were happening on mircrofinance discussion forums in the 90's. I can imagine two sides :
- The ones beleiving that if grameen bank made it profitable, all the worldwide banks should do it and everyone will profit from it : The poorests and the richests !
- The ones doubting about the goodwill of big international banks to keep the business "clean" !

I'm not saying microcredit is bad and I'm not a specialist but as an economist I guess you know well the question an the scandals worldwide on microcredits. Strong regulation is needed against these big corporation, this is I believe a big lesson of the past century.

Your recommandations are right in your reports, I can't disagree with that :
"Chemical and fragrance companies could be strategic partners to design better biodegradable bags and additives to contain waste. The design and manufacturing of the toilet itself could be improved by involving sanitary equipment manufacturers "

But when Unilever has been producing for a 100 years its cleaning products and never created a ecological one (please find just one) ... I can't fight doubting on their willingness to do as you said : "They could design better biodegradable bags and additives". Who is being "philosophical" then ?

In order to leave this theoretical debates on trust toward multinational, let's move forward. Please could you give me a your vision for the particular case of ghana-san project. Put it in 10 years time, give me your counter-picture of what I imagined previously :
"Toilets are built in China, and I guess toilet additive too, waste can not be treated yet out of a treatment plant, how therefore is it supporting local businesses?"

Thanks for these exchanges, best,

Ben]]>
New publications Sat, 11 Oct 2014 19:34:03 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: SimonB http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10429 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10429
You are right to raise the point of externalities and long-run sustainability. We don't want to promote sanitation solutions that would create health or environmental hazards, and realize in 10 years that we don't know how to get rid of chemicals or empty pits. It has been and is still an issue with some sanitation programs. The reassuring news is that many others (including Clean Team) are working actively on improving their solutions to make them safe for consumers, non-demeaning for workers and environmentally sustainable in the long-run.

Regarding your broader point on working with large corporations, I think that it is more of a "philosophical" than a "technical" debate, and I would rather not answer in my Hystra capacity. Note however that I tend to agree with JK's point: large corporations are "amoral", in the sense that they could do good or bad (sometimes against the goodwill of their management!), and we should rather try to leverage their tremendous resources to serve social causes than blame them as a whole and miss this opportunity.

Simon Brossard
Hystra Consultant]]>
New publications Thu, 09 Oct 2014 08:39:40 +0000
Re: Ph.D. thesis - Assessment of a black water source-separation sanitation system - by: charlesthibodeau2030 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10295-phd-thesis-assessment-of-black-water-source-separation-sanitation-system-using-lca-and-life-cycle-costing-charles-tibodeau-canada#10354 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10295-phd-thesis-assessment-of-black-water-source-separation-sanitation-system-using-lca-and-life-cycle-costing-charles-tibodeau-canada#10354
Thanks for sharing this document that is interesting... I'll may have the time to read it later on, but I understand that LCA don't provide the road map for innovation... that is for sure, but help to give the big picture of the product impacts. Positive effects? Well, do you mean that since a products has less impact then another one, it is positive? The same will economic aspect? For the social side, it is hard to measure with existing UNEP-SETAC frameworks... but I know that methodology development is going on and should be applied to measure this... but what will look like the "global" road map for innovation integrating all these aspects?

Cheers,

Charles]]>
New publications Wed, 01 Oct 2014 15:49:29 +0000
Re: A new short documentary film, "Behind The Data: The People Who Make Research Happen", on Sandec's YouTube channel! - by: elizabethtilley http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10199-a-new-short-documentary-film-qbehind-the-data-the-people-who-make-research-happenq-on-sandecs-youtube-channel#10348 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10199-a-new-short-documentary-film-qbehind-the-data-the-people-who-make-research-happenq-on-sandecs-youtube-channel#10348
You summarized it well, but I will just add a few extra thoughts.

The motivation of making this movie was three-fold:

1. to briefly summarize the research project, though this really just provided the context for the bigger goal which was to:

2. underline the importance and difficulty of data collection. Though many of us know this from our experiences, I wanted to show- to donors, to policy makers, to research managers- how much work was required, and consequently, how much it costs. There is a growing movement for increased monitoring and evaluation (which is excellent) but which takes perhaps more time, energy and money than we sometimes realize.

3. finally, and most importantly, to create something that could be returned to the participants of the study, and to the employees who did the work. We screened the movie in a local community center in August and then distributed DVDs to those who could not attend. I wanted to ensure that there was some kind of feedback, as this is often lacking, or in an undigestible form (e.g. reports).

I could not see the embedded link, so here it is again:

P.S. I would also highly recommend the company that filmed and produced it: Scholars & Gentlemen, who are based in Durban, SA. I would be happy to provide a reference if you are interested (they work throughout South and southern Africa)

Liz]]>
New publications Wed, 01 Oct 2014 08:01:43 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: ben http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10338 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10338
I'm with you and really don't want to alienate them, but we're still on a Sustainable sanitation Forum. We should be able to discuss here without manichaeism if Unilever having monopoles on soap all over the world is actually sustainable for the populations. Is it on the long term helping the cause ? Which is the ultimate goal of sanitation marketing = to make programs free of grants or subsidies.

I'm sure when green revolution arrived in developing countries with WB + IMF programs, pesticide industries, monsanto ... crops were just amazing the first decade, everyone was happy.

Please don't make me a "left side integrist", my wish is just to push them for more transparency. How awesome would be to have someone from Unicef asking in this forum to practicioners on the ground :
"Should Unicef keep advertising Unilever lifebuoy soap in 140 countries this year through the handwashing day ?" Probably everyone would say yes, maybe a guy working in Indonesia would tell us that all the misery in the island comes from Unilever deforstation. The discussion would be interesting because we would have a vision on all externalities.

Maybe only a few of us are interested in tehse subjects, but I have the feeling that there's an Omerta on criticising them, most of us being shy on critics because we could potentially get some funds from them one day.

What I'd love, is to animate the debate to know "Where is the yellow line". We had an interseting debate on the old ecosan-res, for example please answer me the following :
"You're working in closing the loop with agriculture right, so if Monsanto wants to green wahs a bit and offer you a few millions for your program, what would you do and whatever your choice is : why ?"

I was talking about the IFC project because being Kenyan based plastic factories is important, as much as the head quarters being in the country so they pay taxes there (which has to be confirmed though).
Imagine the ghanasan project is scaling up, please tell me if I'm wrong, millions of toilets built in China are arriving in ghana, millions of liters of toilet additive that can't be treated trhough composting are arriving from somewhere else probably poluting during the process and transport, the company is paying taxes in Holland or other tax heaven, etc ... Would you still confirm that this is a great opportunity for the long term ?

I've been working years in the biggest french companies and I know a bit how they work, the greenpeace case is a good example of the fact if no-one makes fuss then it's just business as usual. So we shouldn't underestimate the impact of the discussions we're having here, maybe if tens of bright sanitation activits are claiming some transparency on Multinationals participation to the sector, they will provide it gradually.

In the hope that free discussion and non-agressive point of views can be shared here, without being shy because somehow they('ll) finance your program.

Best,

Ben]]>
New publications Tue, 30 Sep 2014 07:48:07 +0000
Re: WASHplus Weekly: Focus on Sanitation as a Business - by: JKMakowka http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10337 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new-publications/10314-washplus-weekly-focus-on-sanitation-as-a-business-eg-designing-the-next-generation-of-sanitation-businesses-by-hystra?limit=12&start=12#10337
They deserve criticism for much of that they do, but it does little good to alienate them completely, i.e. lets try to embrace them for the good they can actually do.

NGOs are historically very bad at bringing things to scale, and small businesses rarely have the "muscle" to make governments adjust unfavourable regulations/conditions. Both of which the multinationals are very good at (both negatively and positively).]]>
New publications Tue, 30 Sep 2014 06:34:38 +0000