Self built Clivus Multrum composting toilet (Clivus Minimus) - in Ukraine (questions on air duct system)
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TOPIC: Self built Clivus Multrum composting toilet (Clivus Minimus) - in Ukraine (questions on air duct system)

Self built Clivus Multrum composting toilet (Clivus Minimus) - in Ukraine (questions on air duct system) 21 Jun 2014 18:37 #9015

  • BPopov
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  • I am an ecologist in the Ukrainian Carpathians invoved with ecosanitation
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Hello!
I am building a Clivus composting toilet sometimes called Clivus Minimus. However I have some questions about the air ducts system. The information I can find on Internet is quite limited. Does anyone have experience with that and willing to discuss?

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 21 Jun 2014 19:56 #9016

  • AquaVerde
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Hi again,
Maybe the 10 min nice video from Freiburg Vauban adventure play ground helps you already a bit:
vimeo.com/62022656
You will see Mr. Arne Panesar,now with susana/ecosan in Germany
Mr. Berger is an other resourceful person. If he is not in the forum send him a direct message.
Good Luck
Detlef
www.aqua-verde.de
Sanitation-Solutions without external energy
Low-Tech Solutions with High-Tech Effects
"Inspired by Circular Economy"
www.flickr.com/photos/aqua-verde/
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2014 19:57 by AquaVerde.

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 22 Jun 2014 17:07 #9022

  • BPopov
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Thank you very much, Detlef!

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 22 Jun 2014 21:22 #9024

  • Wolfgang Berger
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Dear Bogdan,

There is some description inside the GIZ Technology Review "Composting toilets":
susana.org/lang-en/library?view=ccbktype...mp;type=2&id=878

If you want to construct a sliding bottom type container, the air ducts must be strong enough to carry the upper weight of the compost mass, also depending from the length of the channels. In our TerraNova system, we have only two channels to avoid blockage of the material on the way towards the removal chamber. Many DIY designs recommend halved plastic pipes by diameter 100 mm, but they will break very easily. Ideally the construction should be calculated to avaoid future costs and problems. We make them out of glas fibre reinforced plastic since 1986 without breakage.

Clivus Multrum and other producers (like us) also offer flat bottom type containers. Inside there is mostly a lower ventilated chamber for drainage, separated from an upper composting chamber by a perforated bottom plate.

You will find some examples of both types inside the appendix:
susana.org/lang-en/library?view=ccbktype...mp;type=2&id=876

Beside these details, look for easy maintenance and removal.
Best regards

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Berger
BERGER BIOTECHNIK GmbH
Bogenstr. 17
20144 Hamburg, Germany
tel. +49(0)404397875
fax +49(0)40437848
berger@berger-biotechnik.de
www.berger-biotechnik.de
Last Edit: 23 Jun 2014 08:30 by muench.

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 23 Jun 2014 13:15 #9030

  • BPopov
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Dear Wolfgang!

Thank you very much for the response and usefull information!

I wish we could simply buy the expert system you produce and install it but unfortunately it is not possible at the moment since Ukraine is now in catastrophical economical situation because of the war. However no mater of all this I still would like to do my best to promote ecosanitation in Ukrainian Carpathians. I hope the toilet we built will be a good demonstration and persuade local people that ecosanitation approaches work. Most of them actually disbelieve this and think that a water closet is the only modern civilized solution (with a pipe leading to a nearest mountain stream)

I have sent you some information on the toilet we built to your e-mail address. Would be gratefull for any suggestions that you can make.

Bogdan

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 24 Jun 2014 12:21 #9049

  • Wolfgang Berger
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Dear Bogdan,
Thank you for your background information and I really respect your work.
Of course, DIY systems may also work as as good or bad as finished products, depending mainly on design, construction and maintenance. I designed a DIY construction for a public toilet as part of a German research project in Ghana, which maybe of interest for you: www.susana.org/lang-en/case-studies?view...p;type=2&id=1691

For the present design in your project I want to give you some hints:
- The inner surface of the container should be as smoothy as possible to improve sliding(strong PE-foil, paint, waterproof plywood (Multiplex) or fine screed);
- The plastic air ducts should be reinforced by steel profiles or possibly completely constructed by waterproof plywood (Multiplex)24 mm, if the cutting edges are sealed.
- Increase the height below the barrier wall to improve removal and replace it with compostable filter material.
- From my experience, the top row air ducts is not required, if sufficient structural material is added. The airducts interfere with the maintenance.
- The diameter of the exhaust pipe outside should be d = 160 mm in order to increase negative pressure.

There are more hints in the German book "Komposttoiletten" (2008), which is also published in Russian language, but not in English. www.susana.org/lang-en/library?view=ccbk...p;type=2&id=1128

I would be glad if I could visit your project in a pacified Ukraine very soon.
All the best,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang Berger
BERGER BIOTECHNIK GmbH
Bogenstr. 17
20144 Hamburg, Germany
tel. +49(0)404397875
fax +49(0)40437848
berger@berger-biotechnik.de
www.berger-biotechnik.de
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Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 25 Jun 2014 08:54 #9066

  • BPopov
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Dear Wolfgang!
Thank you for the very useful hints and links. I actually heard of your book in Russian but didn't suspect that have a chance to comunnicate with the author directly! I will order it from Russia as soon as opportunity comes.
I would be happy if you come visit us in the Carpathians. Apart from toilets I am involved as an ecologist with several interesting projects around the region and gladly show it.
The Ghana project you supervised is absolutely fantastic. This is kind of work I really appreciate. Use of local materials, aestetic values of exterior and interior. Highly thought out process planning. As a teacher I think educational facilities are important places to insatall these systems since toilets are one of the the best examples of apllied ecology and work very well to teach important basics. Wish I could be involved with such a project here in Ukraine some day.
This's quite a shame that I didnt contact you before since you suggestions now make me think that we have to remake quite a big part of work.
1) Three days ago we poured the slab with the opennings for wastes (300 mm) and for the vent pipe 110 mm. Do you think it makes sense to cut a bigger openning 160 mm around it with a chisel or angle grinder since this size is critical?

slab.jpg


2) Now that you advise to make only one bottom row of air ducts I start to think that this ventilation ledge with 4 openinngs on the rear wall is not needed and better replaced with the vertical pipes ending 10 cm below the slab. I put here the picture of how it looks now. As I said it is projecting from the wall 20 cm not 10 cm as on the original plans which I think might interfere with operation (too close to the drop opening and the material might accumulate on the top of it and get into the ventilation holes).

ledge1.jpg


comp_wc.jpg


3)This is very interesting idea to use waterproof plywood for the air ducts. What the cross section it would be better? Inverted U -shape made of 3-pieces or inverted V-shape made of 2 pieces? I thought also about making them of bent in U – shape galvanized sheet iron. There also old fiber cement pipes available 100 , 150 and 200 mm diameter which we can cut along with diamond disc. They are very sturdy and quite cheap. Maybe they can be used for the vertical pipes too.

fibrecementpipe.jpg


4) What if we also make barrier wall of ply wood or fiber cement sheet?
Best wishes,
Bogdan
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Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 25 Jun 2014 09:57 #9068

  • Wolfgang Berger
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Dear Bogdan,

Thank you for the details and your positive feedback.
Here are my suggestions to your discussion points:
1) Use a adapter pipe for reduction 110/160 mm.
2) If you install vertical pipes and connect them with the air ducts, think of maintenance. The diameter may become clogged with spiderwebs by the time of operation, especially at the bows. I prefer the wall-type, if there is enough space towards the bottom, so material can get into the compost chamber from there. The space inbetween can be cleaned more easy from the inside. If the opening is too close to the down-pipe, use a reduction insert inside the toilet housing: www.berger-biotechnik.de/images/reduziereinsatz900.jpg The insert facilitates cleaning and prevents children from falling into the toilet.
3) A V-shaped air duct will dam the material on the way from the top to the bottom. The fibre cement pipes may be the better solution, if they are free of asbestos.

If the functional conditions are implemented, it is about a pleasing ambience of the toilets, the toilet rooms and the building. I'm excited to see what solutions you plan.
Best regards

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Berger
BERGER BIOTECHNIK GmbH
Bogenstr. 17
20144 Hamburg, Germany
tel. +49(0)404397875
fax +49(0)40437848
berger@berger-biotechnik.de
www.berger-biotechnik.de

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 25 Jun 2014 21:02 #9080

  • BPopov
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Dear Wolfgang!

Thank you very much for the very important suggestions! The chances that this highland toilet work OK now grew significantly .
1) There is also another idea came what can be used for the air ducts. There is a profile used for fitting gypsum sheets made of galvanized iron. KNAUF for example makes the whole range of different sizes.www.knauf.ua/products/suhoe-stroitelstvo...h-stroit/profile/156 However I am more about using fibre cement pipe since it looks stronger. What do you think?
50-75-100.jpg



2) If we can still use the wall venting system in the ledge which is made this is good. However I am doubting about how close should be the top of it to the slab. Now the distance is about 60 cm. Should we raise the ledge so top of it will be closer to the slab (the distance on the original palns is about 20 cm)?
slab2.jpg




3)Unfortunately I am not very much in the position to determine the interior and the look of upper house of this toilet. The sponsor wants to express his creativity individually. So far I had not seen the plan of how it will look. The only my suggestions which was accepted was a big window behind the pedestal with a fantastic mountain view. Tried to convince about putting urinals at least in the male cabins but this didn’t work. People do not really understand here the idea of urine separation.
Personally I like very much the interior planning I found somewhere in internet. Hope the next toilet wil be like that.
Projekte_Trockenklo.jpg

As for the outer toilet look I would like very much in future to use cord wood building since it really in tune with local resource base (wood country).
dcflatau_page2_shed.jpg



Best wishes,
Bogdan
Last Edit: 25 Jun 2014 22:10 by muench.

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 26 Jun 2014 11:21 #9087

  • Wolfgang Berger
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Dear Bogdan,
1. Galvanized sheet metal will rust by the time, caused by moisture and acids during the composting process.
2. 20 to 30 cm will fit.
3. I like your suggestions. The building and the inside facilities should be attractive, light and easy to clean. Hand cleansing and drying is a must. Is there any option for disabled visitors? Perhaps you can remind the sponsor for regarding these important aspects. Also some information for the visitors about the function of the system and the use of the compost should be displayed. I hope, you can influence your project as a model for future applications.

Best regards
Wolfgang
Wolfgang Berger
BERGER BIOTECHNIK GmbH
Bogenstr. 17
20144 Hamburg, Germany
tel. +49(0)404397875
fax +49(0)40437848
berger@berger-biotechnik.de
www.berger-biotechnik.de

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 26 Jun 2014 20:18 #9099

  • BPopov
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Dear Wolfgang!

Thank you very much for your advice. We follow it.

I will put here the inforamtion how we proceed with the project. Hope I convince the sponsor to pay attention to the details your said. I ordered your book today. When I have it I will show it to him and this will add weight to my words Is there a section about features for disabled people?

Best wishes,

Bogdan

Re: Self built Clivus Multrum toilet (Clivus Minimus) 02 Jul 2014 13:10 #9189

  • Wolfgang Berger
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  • Publisher and author of a specialist book and various publications on composting toilets; owner of Berger Biotechnik since 1985; project staff of research projects;
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Dear Bogdan,

The Russian translation of the German book "Komposttoiletten" can be ordered from www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4934634/. It was released in 2010 (444 pages, all photos in black and white). ISBN 978-5-9775-0479-9

Toilet room design for disabled people is very extensive, so that the Compost toilet book just shows some project examples. Helpful may be the following link (in English) that takes stairs and ramps into account: www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Developme...DownLoad,1655,en.pdf

The dry toilet building design in Ghana at VVU is flexible: The last toilet room in the row of toilets is combined with the space for urinals and can be adapted to the requirements for the disabled by using both spaces. Access is possible via a ramp or placing the building on a slope for ground-level access.

In case your sponsor is interested, we deliver dry toilets for handicapped persons by seat height of 48 cm.

Best regards

Wolfgang
Wolfgang Berger
BERGER BIOTECHNIK GmbH
Bogenstr. 17
20144 Hamburg, Germany
tel. +49(0)404397875
fax +49(0)40437848
berger@berger-biotechnik.de
www.berger-biotechnik.de
Last Edit: 02 Jul 2014 13:33 by muench.
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