SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Tue, 21 Oct 2014 19:55:31 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: DavidAlan http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10605 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10605 CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:43:32 +0000 Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: dwumfourasare http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10511 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10511
in my little experiences, i've not seen any strong evidence agains subsidy based approach to sanitation. well, i've not seen yet in Ghana here where subsidy based latrines were never used by households or beneficiaries (who are genuinely poor/needy) who can barely afford a 2-square meal, but people always say subsidy approach to sanitation is bad. who has weighed the pros and cons of both subsidy based interventions and CLTS? some of these debates will continue once we are not seeing any improvement either with CLTS which appears to "crucify" subsidy based interventions. in fact, the irony of the matter is that, most subsidy based sanitation approaches appeared to be subsidiaries/subservient of water supply interventions/projects but not interventions on their own. so some condemnations could be false as well.]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 17:48:45 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: dietvorst http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10508 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10508
To my surprise I just came across a new publication in the Frontiers of CLTS: Innovations and Insights series called "Participatory Design Development for Sanitation" which is actually about building better latrines that don't collapse. There's even mention of a "qualified structural engineer" to review designs and a "business consultant" to "support the entrepreneurs in technical training and ongoing quality control". So not all CLTS promoters (the publication was from UNICEF) reject external "interference"!]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 16:08:03 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10506 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10506 CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 15:20:59 +0000 Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: dietvorst http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10504 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10504
Regarding your point:

Is it reasonable to expect users in these kinds of village situations to understand the information given to them about water tables? I am a strong believer in the power of knowledge, but it seems to me that it is asking a lot to expect people with a low level of education to understand hydrology.


I think that Christoph and I meant: making villagers aware that poor quality latrines will collapse in areas with a high water table and suggesting better solutions. A service of a support agency would be to test groundwater levels before construction takes place.

Cor]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 14:23:30 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10502 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10502
Regarding this point from Cor/Christoph:

Christoph makes a valid point. It is unethical to deny communities access to information that will help them avoid unnecessary mistakes.


Is it reasonable to expect users in these kinds of village situations to understand the information given to them about water tables? I am a strong believer in the power of knowledge, but it seems to me that it is asking a lot to expect people with a low level of education to understand hydrology. I'd be interested to hear if there are examples where it has been possible to educate local people about these things and where they have been able to use the knowledge without any further assistance.]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 13:23:50 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: arno http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10495 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10495
See the video recordings from this meeting.

forum.susana.org/forum/categories/26-hea...k-in-sept-2014#10105

or

www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoJ3pxCzM...-share_playlist_user]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Mon, 13 Oct 2014 10:43:49 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: mkoslengar http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10487 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10487
In the Myths of the Rural Water Supply sector abstract, one can read ''many of the constructed services have not continued to work over time. It has been estimated that only two out of three installed handpumps are working at any given time. Thousands of people, who once benefited from a safe drinking water supply, now walk past broken handpumps or taps and on to their traditional, dirty water point''

I see this sentence, be applied for ''poorly constructed pit latrines'' in some villages where communities have adopted inappropriate sanitation technologies.
I personally believe sanitation programs shouldnt continue to henge in between options
1- communities using poorly constructed toilets ( with all the risk that David and chistoph have mentioned earlier)
2- communities not using the nicely designed and sustainable infrastructures etc..

We just need to be the right sanitation advisors to the communities and guide them toward the best and sustainable options(according to context).]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 22:01:51 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: dietvorst http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10484 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10484
The CLTS movement's belief in community-led approaches is reminiscent of the belief of the rural water sector a decade ago in community management. In the 2010 RWSN publication Myths of the Rural Water Supply Sector, Myth no. 3 reads: "Communities are always capable of managing their facilities on their own".

External support, as opposed to external control, is not only needed but also a tax payer's right. Indeed, the Plan Australia CLTS study discussed earlier on this forum, recommended that more support was needed to maintain behaviours and upgrade latrines. Plan International's ongoing Pan-Africa Programme will hopefully shed more light on this issue.

Just like David, I would also like to see the hard evidence that shows that CLTS on its own leads to people moving up the sanitation ladder, or even to a sustainable community-wide ODF status. A recent study in The Philippines found that the "prevalence of helminthiases was highest in a village that benefitted from CLTS".

Christoph makes a valid point. It is unethical to deny communities access to information that will help them avoid unnecessary mistakes.]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 18:32:19 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: DavidAlan http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10480 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10480 CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 10:46:11 +0000 Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: christoph http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10479 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10479
Even in the light that some mentioned that (some of) the Forum are criticizing too much the upscaling experiences (forum.susana.org/forum/categories/142-up...ation-marketing#9223)....
what stresses me is that for some reason the same errors are forced to be committed again and again.

The discussion around the linked example as well as the example mentioned by Preetha is referring to high groundwater tables as a reason for problems with pit latrines or poor flush.

Preetha cites Kamal Kar
As Kamal Kar often says, let us allow the community to take their time to rationalize and choose their technology with improved sanitation behaviour rather than suggesting/prescribing technological prototypes to them from the very beginning.

Is that not a bit cynic?

I understand fully and share the idea that often people have to feel an error before they are able to understand that something does not work. But for sanitation? With people who really have to do a very, very high effort to build a latrine, just do loose it 3 -4 month later (see post of Preetha)? In order to learn?

AGAIN and AGAIN - WHY???!!!

With almost the same effort you could build something that lasts - what is so wrong about showing a better solution? How can we - "experts" just look and see how the none experts (with no knowledge – therefore non expert) try to solve their problem of sanitation. How cynical is it, to preach the end of ODF in a high water table area without showing in practice the problem of latrines which are not build properly. So why not work on CLTS and at the same time show a solution that is affordable and suitable for the situation AND showing the problem with doing a simple latrine? Obviously that is not done when many of the latrines fail after 3-4 month. I also find that shocking (as David) and we not even came to the subject of proper handling of filled up latrines in high water table areas.

Please knock me down if I got something wrong, I would be glad if I got something wrong or misinterpreted something do to my lack of experience with CLTS - because it would give me more hope.

Regards Christoph]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 10:29:13 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: DavidAlan http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10477 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10477
So that means that the statement made by KK concerning pits collapsing within the first year is correct, as you state (in one instance you state 3-4 months). This still shocks me regardless of the background reasons you give. I assume there is no follow up data as to exactly how many people dig a replacement pit, and this would seem quite useful to have.

You mention pits collapsing in high water table areas. Surely pit latrines shouldn't be encouraged in high water table areas because of the danger of disease during the rainy season and the possible contamination of aquifers?

I am also interested in what data you have for how many people move up the sanitation ladder? This is an oft-quoted statement, but as yet I have seen no real hard evidence that this actually happens.

Can you also shed some light on the controversy between figures used in the book that were refuted by the Madagascan Minister?

Regards, David]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 07:25:20 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: PreethaP http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10476 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10476
Apologies for this late response. Thank you for your question on the pit latrines and for ‘triggering’ a discussion on this very important topic. There seems to be a fair amount of misunderstanding or misconception of the issue of pit latrines, and we would like to thank you for raising this point and giving us the opportunity to engage with this discussion. The statement that you draw attention to, as being made by Dr. Kamal Kar, has in fact been quoted out of context. His colleagues (including me) from CLTS Foundation were present during the session when this particular point was brought out by Dr. Kar. However, it was made in the context of a few other things that he said in response to a question on sustainability and movement along the sanitation ladder, which are important to understand in order to grasp the totality of his point. We’d like to take this opportunity to elaborate on these, focusing on the message that he was trying to convey.

Dr. Kamal Kar was stressing on the fact that CLTS is outcome-focused on collective behavior change, which is spontaneous and led by the local community themselves. In other words, if triggered successfully, collective local decision to initiate behaviour change to stop the practice of OD is taken spontaneously and willingly by the community, and it is not guided or influenced by any expectations of free/ subsidized toilets, cash incentives, rewards or help of any kind offered by outsiders. As an instant and simple step forward towards stopping ‘fecal-oral transmission’, often the community decides to build pit latrines, as this does not involve any external inputs, financial provisioning or technological prescriptions. Simple pit latrines built with locally available low-cost materials is effective as it is a manifestation of the sense of immediate urgency felt by the community and the collective momentum created through the triggering exercise. If this powerful collective community energy is not interrupted by prescriptions, directives, offers and is allowed to grow on its own from its early stage, it paves the way for locally-made simple pit latrines to move up along the sanitation ladder. As the community experiences visible positive impacts on environmental cleanliness, privacy, convenience, safety and eventually on their health in the quickest possible time, the need for better toilets is felt more seriously than ever before. The conventional ‘supply-driven toilet construction’ story turns into a ‘demand-driven investment by households’ phenomena.

Now coming to the specific point that you bring out, what Kamal Kar was trying to say was that in areas with high rainfall, sandy or loose soil and/or a higher water table, it is often seen that pit latrines do not sustain for a long period of time. However, what has occured silently during the time between construction and collapse of the first simple pit latrine built by the triggered community, is the gradual transformation of the OD behaviour to that of no-OD. It has often been seen in many countries that women and children refused to return to the ‘bush’ in places where the simple pit latrines lasted for at least 3 to 4 months. Demand and pressure was created on the men or heads of households either to repair or to build new latrines. The pace of household investments on new latrines and movement upwards along the sanitation ladder depends on factors like access to markets, availability of cash at home, remoteness, seasonality of migration, flooding and inundation etc. Wide range of CLTS experiences from all over the world are available that reflect on how communities adjust themselves to cope with the collapse of their first simple pit latrines but do not return to OD.

Also when it comes to the question of sustainability, an important point to remember is that once it is witnessed that behaviour change within a community has started taking place, encouraging technology innovations and making available an affordable range of low-cost and user-friendly sanitary hardware becomes important and critical. As Kamal Kar often says, let us allow the community to take their time to rationalize and choose their technology with improved sanitation behaviour rather than suggesting/prescribing technological prototypes to them from the very beginning. The introduction of technology earlier than desired often runs into the danger of externally driven and externally controlled sanitation coverage rather than handing over the power to the communities for sustained behaviour change that has proven effective in many countries across the globe.

Hope this explanation has been useful. We will be very happy to respond to any more follow-up questions or thoughts on this.

On behalf of CLTS Foundation,
Preetha Prabhakaran]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Sun, 12 Oct 2014 07:05:03 +0000
Re: Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: DavidAlan http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10221 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10221
For me this is interesting because in Sierra Leone we have visited villages that have been deemed ODF and where people are still open defecating or, in one case, denied they were ever visited in the first place. I wonder if anybody has a solution of how to monitor numbers correctly, to check that training has taken place and what about follow up work, how is that handled? This latter item ties in to my earlier comment about pits collapsing within the first year. What happens then? Who is researching whether new pits are being dug and whether the community stays ODF .]]>
CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:10:35 +0000
Debate about effectiveness of CLTS, prompted by UNICEF official after book launch about CLTS in Madagascar - by: DavidAlan http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10204 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation/10204-debate-about-effectiveness-of-clts-prompted-by-unicef-official-after-book-launch-about-clts-in-madagascar?limit=12&start=12#10204 www.communityledtotalsanitation.org/) and a senior UNICEF official concerning CLTS (community led total sanitation) and its effectiveness. This was subsequent to Kamal Kar's book launch in Stockholm.

Does anybody have information on the basis of the debate, or where such a debate is taking place?

I am aware that Kamal Kar said at World Water Week that the majority of pits dug because of triggering, collapse within the first year, which personally I find quite shocking.

I would be grateful for any comments.

David


+++++++++++++++++

Note by moderator (EvM):
Information about the mentioned book launch was received by e-mail on 20 August 2014 (emphasis added by me):


Greetings from CLTS Foundation, Kolkata !

We are happy to inform you that CLTS Foundation is organising a book launch jointly with WSSCC at the World Water Week in Stockholm this year. It gives us great pleasure to invite you to this event on September 2nd, 2014 from 1300 -1400 hours, to be held at the Press Room in Stockholmsmassan.

As you are aware, CLTS Foundation has been actively engaged in providing process support, capacity building and policy advice to several countries in Asia and Africa over the last few years. This has led to the intensification of CLTS implementation and scaling up of activities in many countries.

While several of these countries have made considerable progress, Madagascar especially has witnessed unprecedented success, with the country achieving till date close to 10,000 ODF villages in a short period of only three and a half years. The unique mechanisms and processes that have led to Madagascar's progress have been captured and documented by the CLTS Foundation team in a book called 'Promising Pathways' which will be launched during the Water Week in Stockholm. This event will be attended by ministers from Madagascar and senior officials from WSSCC/GSF among other key stakeholders of sanitation. It will be great to have you and your colleagues with us at the event.

Attached with this email is an official invite for the book launch. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Best Regards,

CLTS Foundation team, Kolkata


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CLTS Foundation
CB-88, Salt Lake City,
Kolkata-700064
West Bengal
India
Tel: +91 33 4065 1168
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CLTS (Community led total sanitation) Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:16:57 +0000