SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:08:04 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Video: Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Ripl......"Ohne dezentrale Abwasserwirtschaft keine Nachhaltigkeit" (In German, Translation: "No decentralized sewage management, no sustainability" - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8251-video-prof-dr-wilhelm-riplqohne-dezentrale-abwasserwirtschaft-keine-nachhaltigkeitq-in-german-translation-qno-decentralized-sewage-management-no-sustainabilityq#8251 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8251-video-prof-dr-wilhelm-riplqohne-dezentrale-abwasserwirtschaft-keine-nachhaltigkeitq-in-german-translation-qno-decentralized-sewage-management-no-sustainabilityq#8251

- Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Ripl übt Kritik am Co2-Klimamodell:
Interview vom 06.11.2009 zum Klimagipfel in Kopenhagen. CO2 ist die falsche Klimatheorie. Wasser und Pflanzen sind bestimmend für das Klima. Das Klima muss dezentral, regional durch Aufwertung der Landwirte verbessert werden.
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Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:36:36 +0000
Kreislaufwirtschaftsgesetz für Abwasser öffnen (In German, Translation: "Expanding Circular Economy Law to Waste Water") - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8248-kreislaufwirtschaftsgesetz-fuer-abwasser-oeffnen-in-german-translation-qexpanding-circular-economy-law-to-waste-waterq#8248 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8248-kreislaufwirtschaftsgesetz-fuer-abwasser-oeffnen-in-german-translation-qexpanding-circular-economy-law-to-waste-waterq#8248 Tagungsband: 47. Essener Tagung für Wasser- und Abfallwirtschaft. 19.3.-21.3.2014 in Essen. Aachen 2014. ISSN 0342-6068.

aqua-verde.de/data/documents/47.-Essener...Abfallwirtschaft.pdf

ein interessanter Beitrag von Jörg Londong und Mathias Hartmann/ Bauhaus Uni Weimar.

"Angepasste Einzelfalllösungen unter wegweisenden politischen Rahmenbedingungen statt detaillierter administrativer Vorgaben- ein Plädoyer für die Ingenieur- und Rechtskunst"

Beginnend mit dem Schiller-Zitat "Das Gesetz hat zum Schneckengang verdorben, was Adlerflug geworden wäre",
fordern die Autoren ein Überdenken unserer deutschen Genehmigungsverfahren in Richtung angepasster, flexibler administrativer Vorgaben, u.a. damit sich innovative Infrastrukturformen (z.B. Hamburg Water Cycle) besser verbreiten können.

Kern der Forderung: Das Kreislaufwirtschaftsgesetz für Abwasser öffnen.


Eine Antwort:

Kreislaufwirtschaftsgesetz für Abwasser öffnen - u.a. mit "flexibleren Geschäftsmodellen" wie z.B. TURNTOO !?


Sehr geehrte Herren Londong und Hartmann,

Danke für Ihren mutigen Beitrag im Tagungsband: 47. Essener Tagung für Wasser- und Abfallwirtschaft. 19.3.-21.3.2014 in Essen. Aachen 2014. ISSN 0342-6068.

Nur kurz (weiter unten ein sehr langer Text), als Anregung zur notwendigen Evolution in der "Ab"-Wasserwirtschaft, bitte in die möglichen "temporären Ausnahmezustände", z.B. in den beiden Test-gebieten Thüringen's, auch "flexiblere Geschäftsmodelle" siehe Beispiel "TURNTOO" zur Kreislauf-Ökonomie (performance based Geschäftsmodelle: turntoo.com/en/about-turntoo/) aufnehmen, via "Versuch und Irrtum".


Re-thinking Progress: The Circular Economy 4 min:


Eventuell ist Ihnen der erste Artikel in der "wwt" vom Oktober 2013, zur eher technisch gewollten Evolution auf ZKA's, via dem robusten "Ackergaul" ABR (Anaerober Schikane-Reaktor) + Stirling-KWK, zur "einfacheren" Nutzung des Kohlenstoff im häuslichen Abwasser schon bekannt?! PDF in: www.aqua-verde.de/dokumente/ Aber auch auf den ZKA's geht's nicht ohne "flexiblere Geschäftsmodelle", um via NASS wirkliche Rohstoff-Kreisläufe zu erzielen. Rein technische Lösungen, wie z.B. Trocken-Trenn-Systeme, Vakuum-Systeme aber auch o.g. ABR+Stirling-KWK, haben in herkömmlichen AZV-Administrationen und in ÖPP's, basierend auf Abwasser-Satzungs-Geschäftsmodellen mit politisch/ökonomisch limitierten Entsorgungs-Auftrag, wenig bis keine Erfolgsaussichten. Einige inovative Ausnahmen zum blossen "Satzungs-Denken", durch einige GF's initiiert, bestätigen diese "Regel".

Viele Grüsse
Detlef SCHWAGER

AquaVerde
Ingenieurbüro für
stromlose Sanitärlösungen
Low-Tech Lösungen mit High-Tech Effekten
T: 034774 70672
www.aqua-verde.de
www.flickr.com/photos/aqua-verde/

Roger Cox (NL): Circular Economy seems to be the first sound environmentally friendly moneymaking business-proposal. D.h. gesellsch., ökol. und wirtschaftl. Gewinn stehen nicht im Gegensatz zueinander, sondern ergänzen sich zu einem Prinzip, dass diesen Prinzipien, isoliert gesehen, bei weitem überlegen ist.


Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2013 um 09:51 Uhr

Betreff: "TURNTOO" as a profitable business model for "Resource SECURING Sanitation Systems" (aka EcoSan=NASS)?

Sehr geehrter Herr Londong,

Ich komme noch mal auf den gestrigen NASS-Worshop zurück.

Sorry fürs Englische und die extreme Textlänge, um einen Diskurs zum Thema im forum.susanna.org anzuregen, musste ich das Thema in einer internationaleren Sprache formulieren. "Nur" Frau Lautenschläger (wifa) hat bisher einen wirklichen Diskurs aufgenommen.

Kurzfassung:
In meiner Arbeit als Wasser-Ingenieur auf meiner Suche nach "vernünftigerer Arbeit" bin ich mehr und mehr vom Consulting-Unwesen "abgedriftet". Von einem anderen Suchenden bekam ich beim "Abdrifteten" den informellen Hinweis zur "Solaren Kreislaufökonomie", dem C2C-Konzept. Doch anfangs (2-3 Jahre) missverstand ich dies auch nur als neue Amerikanische Verkaufsmasche/Hype/Verarsche und legte es in der Kopf-Schublade unter Blödsinn ab. Ja, auch ich bin ja selbst nur ein Ignorant, stellte ich im Nachhinein fest...

Doch noch immer sehe ich C2C mit bleibender Skepsis, in Bezug auf fehlende Systeme zur praktischen Umsetzung. Dennoch sehe ich darin schon eine “Strategie der Hoffnung”, eine Hoffnung, die ich für einige Jahre schon aufgegeben hatte. Aus dieser positiven Veränderungen heraus, kann ich das Wort "innovativ" nicht mehr mit den herrschenden Ver-& Entsorgungssystemen in Verbindung bringen, im Sinne des Begriffs der Entsorgung (Verbrennen, Verscharren, Umbenennung von Sondermüll in Wertstoff usw.?) oder nur Teile davon. Zum Verständnis, bestehende gute oder weniger gute Systeme (besonders in der bestehenden Entsorgung-Wirtschaft) nur noch etwas effizienter zu machen ist noch nicht innovative, wenn es effektive doch um was anders gehen müsste und muss, die Erhaltung von Ressourcen zum gegenwärtigen und zukünftigen Nutzen.

Die Solare Kreislaufökonomie wäre da ein Ansatz, Philosophie oder Konzept oder wie auch immer man das nun nennt. BRAUNGART predigt sehr viel bei den Herstellern über diese Philosophie und betonte dabei sinngemäß: 'dies bringe indirekt auch den Erhalt von Gewinnen und sei für sie auch Überlebensnotwendig um zukünftig im Geschäft zu bleiben' , m.e. mit der Hoffnung, dass deren Überlebensinstinkte schon selbst die notwendigen Systeme zur C2C-Umsetzung erzeugen werden. Aber das geht m.e. so nicht weiter. Thomas RAU (turntoo.com/en/about-turntoo/) sieht dies und kommt von der anderen Ecke nun rein, er sieht, dass dieses C2C nur durch beidseitigen Nutzen für Kunden und Unternehmer umzusetzen geht (nicht nur zum direkten Nutzen vom Unternehmern), auch kann sich nicht jedes Unternehmen sein eigenes "turntoo" System zwischen sich und den Kunden selbst schaffen. TURNTOO ist m.e. ein innovatives C2C-"Werkzeug", ein System oder auch Geschäftsmodell, die Kreislaufökonomie zwischen Herstellern und Kunden in der tägliche Praxis zum Arbeiten zubringen, zum finanziellen Nutzen der Hersteller und Kunden. Und es hat einen als selbstverständlich begriffenen By-Effekt, den "Schutz und Erhaltung der Umwelt + deren Menschen". Dieses Geschäftsmodell erzwingt dies nicht über Gesetze und Kostensteigerungen für Unternehmer und Kunden. Es ist m.e. kein indirektes Ökodiktatur-Modell der Grünen oder Linken.


Original:
I am cracking my small "MSc-head" on the "biological cycle" of business orientated “EcoSan=NASS” systems. Maybe you have a better thinking and more ideas on this with your bigger "PhD- head"?

May you have and maybe interested colleagues too a look at this business model:

On circular economy (C2C) a realistic linking between producer and customer is missing, which means an appropriate business model, is missing to bring it to real life. E.g. an economical viable system to transfer "used" raw-material from USER back to Producer. Producers are interested in circular economy for economic benefits only, but still have problems to make it work on large scale for their own and USERs benefits. Additional, peaceful international systems aren't in place & will not be put in place, to have raw-materials secured and equally distributed.

Thomas RAU is trying to make the philosophy of circular economy (C2C) work in reality, through a "performance based system" to secure raw-materials, with an environmentally friendly moneymaking business model, called "TURNTOO".

As far as I understand, the "SERVICE-Provider TURNTOO" starts to make it work on the "technical cycle", for the beginning circular economy (C2C). Basically in order to keep technical raw-materials "alive & available" for future users (future generations of producers & USERs), this will stop the accelerating paste of permanent wasting/destroying of more and more raw-materials.

This approach is acting as a kind of "SERVICE-Provider" between Customer & Producer. The former Customer is becoming a USER and only purchases from Producer the "performance of a product", but not the raw-material by itself, instead of the whole product (e.g. 10,000 hours washing, but not the whole washing machine). Therefore the product is cheaper for the USER too. After end of performance period with USER, the "SERVICE-Provider" is collecting as a service mainly for the Producer, the used product (raw-material) and returning it to its raw-material-bank (pool) and finally back to the owner.

Through this kind of SERVICE the Producer becomes an economic benefit of secured availability on raw-material and security on future price developments outside the speculative commodity market.

As far as I understand, the profit margin + costs + risks share involved for the "Raw-material- SERVICE-Provider" is paid by the Producer only & very direct. This amount is near equal to the amount the customer pays less for the product. To start production process and cycle, the SERVICE-Provider has to pre-purchase raw-material from the speculative commodity market (e.g. from steel providers). The Producer is purchasing from the "SERVICE-Provider`s" raw-material bank (pool). The ownership and return of raw-material is later secured by the paid service-provider. As a by effect, a system like that has many more them only economical benefits. Social, ecological and health: e.g. jobs through service providing; through less raw-material exploration and less energy intensive base-material converting.

www.turntoo.com/en/how-turntoo-functions/






What do you think and what would be your advice on "biological cycles" (consumed biological raw-materials) via a business orientated Service-Provider, like TURNTOO in SANITATION?


The business model on "technical cycle" to re-use technical raw-material, like alum and steel is easier to understand.

In my opinion, "consumed" biological raw-materials in a "biological cycle" have high complexity because of many players involved. On the other side many players are needed, in order to make them finally reusable raw-material, plus having an equal sound environmentally friendly moneymaking business model like TURNTOO.


E.g. Phosphate, Humus and Energy in food and in ("used") digested human and animal food (urine and faeces in human and animal sanitation). In near future Agricultural Producers would still like to keep payable price for this precious raw-material as fertiliser & humus back on their field for new food production. The Phosphates reserves are limited, the prices will climb up without re-use-systems.

How could a "SERVICE-Provider" like "TURNTOO" do this "job" between USER and Producer in a profitable way and with economic benefit for USER and Producer for the "biological cycle" of consumed biological raw-materials? In a "performance based system" also?

The old business model for "centralised sewage collection, -treatment and -discharge", with their own lobby organisation is often profitable for a very limited number of beneficiaries. It is still spilling fertiliser, humus and energy through treatment plants via rivers to the sea. "Certification-condoms", gild, shame and horror scenarios about our all future, will not change anything or at least the mindset of the current beneficiaries of thatch systems. In developed countries, centralised sanitation infrastructure without source separation (Urine & Faeces) are in places, after many years of "trial and error".

Therefore any costly and rough "Sustainability-Revolution" will not be successful, but an evolution through "trail and error" on new business models which have more beneficiaries involved, will be successful. Any new estate development might be the best option for a wanted “Sanitation-Revolution”, for centralised new business models on decentralised and semi-centralised services (e.g. Urine Diverting Dehydration Toilets, UDDTs), providing to offer to Agricultural Producer biological raw-material by "biological cycles" (re-use).

To start an evolution (Via trail and error?) on new business models like the inventive Service-Provider "TURNTOO", the existing Centralised Sanitation System has to be used for a “Resource Securing Sanitation” (maybe aka EcoSan). In a first business step to take out Humus & Energy for sale, via low-tech, e.g. by CHP, and in a future business step, taking out the Phosphate also for sale, via high-tech equipment.

First equation (with the help of a BORDA e.V.- spreadsheet) concludes, that a minimum of 10.000 p.e. would be required, to make an investment for a possible service provider viable (this is under typical German conditions, with CHP installation cost 5.000 EUR/kWel). The surplus sludge of existing sewage treatment plant would mainly be used. This calculation is based only on sale of renewable electrical power generated. But selling additional heat for warming up buildings, might lower the number to 5.000 p.e. (by my educated guessing). Having Phosphate in future included (via high-tech) would make smaller "re-use systems" viable too.

!!! E.g. already now, farmers in DK deliver their animal manure to a large bio-gas plant and get paid depending on nutrient and caloric value of manure. Through CHP the plant sales heat and power to a nearby small town and the grid. The same farmers purchase biological fertiliser & humus with a clear stated nutrient content from the plant.

Maybe I see this all too narrowed and too complicated?

Could you follow my German-English? Are the issues involve in a "biological cycle" too complex for a profit orientated Service-Provider in Resource SECURING Sanitation?



Eventuell ist dieses Thema eine Anregung für einen konstruktiven Diskurs.

Es ist schon seltsam, als ehemaliger Kommunist "predige" ich mittlerweile in Richtung innovative profitable business model

(!gemeinwohl-orientierte!)



Best Regards,

Detlef SCHWAGER

www.aqua-verde.de
Sanitation-Solutions without external energy input
Low-Tech Solutions with High-Tech Effects
inspired by C2C


by Roger Cox (NL): Cradle to Cradle seems to be the first sound environmentally friendly moneymaking business-proposal. D.h. ökologischer und wirtschaftlicher Gewinn stehen nicht im Gegensatz zueinander, sondern ergänzen sich zu einem Prinzip, dass den beiden Prinzipien, isoliert gesehen, bei weitem überlegen ist.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:18:54 +0000
Re: Geophagy - eating soil - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8092-geophagy-the-cultural-practices-of-eating-soil-common-in-many-sub-saharan-countries#8146 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8092-geophagy-the-cultural-practices-of-eating-soil-common-in-many-sub-saharan-countries#8146
I read that it is particularly common in Kenya and South Africa. Are you aware of it where you work?

It seems to me that this could be a source of infection outwith of sanitation.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 08 Apr 2014 08:30:31 +0000
Geophagy - the cultural practices of eating soil - common in many sub-Saharan countries? - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8092-geophagy-the-cultural-practices-of-eating-soil-common-in-many-sub-saharan-countries#8092 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/8092-geophagy-the-cultural-practices-of-eating-soil-common-in-many-sub-saharan-countries#8092 for example this one - which talk about the cultural practices of eating soil. I read that it is common in many sub-Saharan countries.

The health risks of such cultural practices include ingestion of toxic metals, biological pathogens and ascaris hookworms.

Given that, I was wondering the extent to which WASH projects might (and perhaps already do) consider geophagy as a source of diarrheal disease.

Here are some quotes from that paper:

The habit of eating soil is a common phenomenon in some parts of Africa. In South Africa, the habit of eating soil has been observed in different groups of people especially the pregnant, breast feeding mothers and children. In children, the habit could either be voluntary or involuntary. This practice has a long old tradition, with the notion that eating soil is just as normal as eating fruits plucked directly from the tree.


And from the conclusion:

The present study revealed a significant difference in elemental concentration from all the geophagic soil samples collected from the same province. This may be as a result of differences in parent material or different levels of soil pollution around the area. When soils with high lead level are ingested by pregnant women, the vulnerable foetus might be at risk.
It will be extremely difficult to curb or stop the habit of eating soil from these areas because of its perceived benefits. It is therefore imperative for government and different stake holders to pronounce legislation on the permissible level of different elements in soil that are consumed by these groups of individuals.


This paper is only looking at heavy metals, I have found several others looking at pathogens.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Thu, 03 Apr 2014 13:49:56 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7747 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7747
...and learn for the future

Yes, it would be an expensive learning exercise, if know-how and information did not exist beforehand for the big boys on "sustainable sanitation", local gov. and EU-VIP's.

But in this not very unusual case, know-how and information existed more them enough and many years well ahead.

Just say only "case closed" for this case of too many!

Maybe one result is now very clear at least to me:
For proper sanitation money is more them enough available and know-how too, but not enough willingness & stand to do so, by people in charge and confidants!

"Money makes greed, and greed devours the brain"


Regards,
Detlef]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 11 Mar 2014 20:47:49 +0000
Re: Excel spreadsheets for descritive statistics of wastewater treatment performance - by: marcos http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7627-excel-spreadsheets-for-descritive-statistics-of-wastewater-treatment-performance#7745 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7627-excel-spreadsheets-for-descritive-statistics-of-wastewater-treatment-performance#7745 Good to know that the spreadsheets seem to be useful. That´s the idea.
Cheers,
Marcos]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:19:30 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: daniel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7735 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7735
Especially the reaction of Detlef was interesting especially as he was apparently very involved once. My interest was only drawn to the subject because of what the NRC/ Mr. Joep Dohmen wrote. Furthermore I wanted more info on how sanitation on small islands can economically be made feasible; not especially the island ofBonaire. This means for me not so much the techniques but more the economical part.

I think both you have indicated enough that Mr. Dohmen touched a point in his article. Furthermore thanks for the rules of thumbs by both of you.
Like Detlef says. Lets stop the discussion and learn for the future,
Regards,
Daniel]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 11 Mar 2014 04:02:26 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7730 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7730
For number clarifications:

- In 2004/5 island total approx. 15,000 calculated p.e. this includes temp. visitors too. No planing existed ever to service all people (p.e. numbers)! By 2003 only 4,109 p.e. (along 500 m village beach line) for 20,000,000 EUR been planed. (I contacted your college on this strange numbers/approach by 2003 in Brazil.)

- By 2008 only approx. 5,000 p.e. will be served only in main village along 500 m beach line using total length of approx. 55 km network. total budget 24,000,000 EUR

- By 2013 only 3,000 to 4,000 p.e., because reduction from 500 to only 200 m beach line. Money committed 34,500,000 EUR, but still 8,000,000 EUR missing to make the houses connection (680 numbers of connections in village) to the sewer network. Therefore, the vacuum sewer system is dry up to today.

- Dutch Reporter Mr. Joep Dohmen, [http://www.nrc.nl/] calculated independent:

34,500,000 EUR / 680 numbers of house-connections = approx. 50,000 EUR per "house-connection" regardless hotel or small house.


I hope you got a more transparent view on numbers.

Regards,
Detlef

More you will find in UNESCO-IHE study on "sustainable sanitation" on Bonaire, made 2004-5 by Prof. Huub J. Gijzen and Peter van der Steen, PhD, forumantilles.com/pdfs/Sewage-management...onaire17novfinal.pdf]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:14:55 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: christoph http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7729 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7729 1975 €/pe - 900 €/pe (my max estimation for the treatment plant (knowing now it is SBR I am sure this is more than sufficient))= 975 €/pe (for the sewer)
Figure of 1,94 m/pe
Therefore: Cost for the sewer 975/1,94 = 450 €/m

Did I clarify?
Christoph]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:37:35 +0000
Re: Sense or Nonsense ? Fossil Carbon energy wasted just to destroy more Carbon energy at "advanced" WWTP's? - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7438-sense-or-nonsense--fossil-carbon-energy-wasted-just-to-destroy-more-carbon-energy-at-qadvancedq-wwtps#7728 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7438-sense-or-nonsense--fossil-carbon-energy-wasted-just-to-destroy-more-carbon-energy-at-qadvancedq-wwtps#7728 Brian Mercer Award for Innovation - David Stuckey

2008

The Brian Mercer Award for Innovation provides funding for individuals or groups to develop an already proven concept or prototype in the general areas of the built environment and nanoscience/ nanotechnology through to the creation of a near-market product for commercial exploitation, ie to a stage where an approach for venture capital becomes a reality.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:13:16 +0000
Re: Excel spreadsheets for descritive statistics of wastewater treatment performance - by: odirilep http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7627-excel-spreadsheets-for-descritive-statistics-of-wastewater-treatment-performance#7714 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/7627-excel-spreadsheets-for-descritive-statistics-of-wastewater-treatment-performance#7714
Phil]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 08:42:24 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: AquaVerde http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7710 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7710
FYI, as a total fresher to the EUCOM-"system" and as the EUCOM-official "...for infrastructure projects for NEA & Aruba", during 2002-3 I was official "responsible" for a wrong "White Elephant" feasibility and master planing by the German consultant DORSCH on Bonaire. With all the personal consequences, after sticking too hard to my basic watsan university education by rejecting wrong "German" plans. Unfortunately the old fashion "White Elephant" AS-planing (AS = activated sludge = sequential batch reactor) was not driven by the "locals" and not for their own benefit. Too many EU-VIP's not water engineers are involved in the deal.

In the meantime the island is now 99% part of NL/EU. Maybe the partly already existing old fashion sanitation-system (for 28 MEUR+++) are now in proper Dutch hands?

What is the/your purpose bring up again & again this masterpiece of German engineering and long term planing?
A question I am asking my self too!

What is your personal interest in it? More them 30,000,000 EUR (taxpayers money) been already "distributed", which you can not recover again. Since 2002/3 + 2004/5 + 2008 this master piece of German long term planing is known in detail by water-engineers and VIP's on Bonaire, Netherlands Antilles, EU, NL (WASTE), Sweden (SEI) and Germany (GTZ-ecosan) and so on, even by people who are posting often within this sustainable sanitation internet forum...

Maybe it is better to say by all case closed!?

Regards,
Detlef SCHWAGER

PS: If you are interested, I can send you some planing EURO-numbers back from 2002/3, with total 20,000,000 EUR for approx. 5,900 people.



“A small pocket-calculator exercise for ALL (base: 20,000,000 EUR)”

For that small pocket-calculator exercise you do not need to be an international well-respected scientist or small expert on sanitation. A primary school pupil might do this by her/him self without teachers attention, if realistic (generally well-known) figures are given and not blurred.

To start with, the chosen limited centralised solution is extremely unusual expensive. Where purifying wastewater, on average of the population, demands according to other international organisation, an investment of 300 up to 500 USD by head. On Bonaire that is circa 3,400 Euro for! It seams Bonaire will be the leading example by “managing off” the European and Dutch taxpayers kind contributions?

To be very conservative, for your own pocket calculator exercise you may consider high German or West-European costs conditions on tax’s, supply, material costs and salaries. For a very-very rough budget calculation including planning and implementation (from scratch) you may even include the whole island will have a centralised wastewater collection and treatment system for circa 20,000 people. You may start with grand total costs of circa 100 – 400 €/PE (per “head”). To be only a bit more specific and to find out to where the money in general terms would go most, you could break it a bit more down in: 150 – 200€/PE (per “head”) for a Centralised-Treatment-Plant and in: minimum 150 €/m for a needed Collection/Pipe network-System.

If you use for that conservative and rough calculation even up to 500 €/PE, and even up to 20,000 Bonaire’es and visitors, Bonaire will need only grand total of EURO10,000,000 (inclusive TAX) for a centralised island system, build from scratch.

By breaking down in 200€/PE for a centralised treatment plant for 20,000 Bonaire’es, circa = €4,000,000, and in minimum 150€/m for centralised Collection/Pipe System, you find out that the total length of that (and any) centralised collection system is the most decisive figure and will on Bonaire consequently eat “necessarily” the most of any capital investment costs, leaving alone the very important long-term economics for long-term deprivation, maintenance and operation costs for the later existing large pipe network system.

The question is, to where the “surplus” of maybe EURO10,000,000 is going, the difference between really needed money, maybe EURO10,000,000 for a centralised system and already planned and used money, total circa EURO20,000,000?

But the currently planned sanitation project supposed to serve ONLY a small beach strip at Kralendijk main town (village), theoretically ONLY 5,887 PE (PE, people equivalent = more or less like persons) inclusive visitors to Bonaire.

So, circa 6,000 people x 500 €/PE = EURO3,000,000. Lets generously twice as much up to EURO6,000,000 for "special needs, like some people have often".

If you now break it a bit down, more conservative in 6,000 people x 200 €/PE (for centralised treatment plant) = EURO1,200,000 and in 55.250 m x 150€/m (for centralised network System) = circa EURO 8,200,000 you end up with Grand Total of EURO9,400,000 only.

The planned actual budget of approx. EURO20,000,000 for circa 6,000 people only! Finally, the big question again is, to where the difference of approx. EURO10,600,000 surpluses are going?

Non experts like Bonaire NGO Alliances, my self and UNESCO-IHE experts indicated already back in 2002 and 2004/5 that if common sense applied on Bonaire, well known state-of-the-art alternatives at hand, works not only better to reduce, e.g. the critical nitrates levels, but also much cheaper for the specific not-congested Bonaire conditions: Instead of one very limited central collection and treatment installation for only circa 6,000 people. The kind sum of circa 20 millions Euro of EuCom and NL-Gov. is MORE THEM ENOUGH to deal with 100% of Bonaire’s wastewater’s in a modern way, mainly locally by means of existing decentralised but thoroughly improved septic tank systems, plus adding grouped or singled very simple decentralised final treatment plants, e.g. like Constructed Wetlands treatments and effluent reuse for irrigation, all operated & managed in a centralised way by one entity only. The recommendation of UNESCO-IHE to seriously examine more such sustainable alternatives has been put to the wind by all authorities concerned - in Brussels (EU), The Hague (NL), NEA-Gov. and Kralendijk (Bonaire).]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 06:21:25 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: daniel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7707 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7707
Thanks for your rapid answer,

Good to be in touch with experienced snaitation engineer. Although I'am certainly not an sanitation engineer, I just came across this post (through the Boniare reporter, a local newspaper that quotes impritant (for Bonaire) items. As I know not exactly the figures I know that the figures of 27M Euro and 14400 p.e.are right.

The bonaire subsoil is extremely in the coastal zone (coral lime stone and the very hard limestone, somtimes called beach rock. The WWTP is around 4 km from the coastal and sewered zone. Everything you will have to do on equipment, pipes and materials has to be (temporarily) imported. The Bonaire climate is salty (so stainless steel necessary), dry and very hot.

Maybe this has soemthing to do with the prices.

From where is the figure 975/pe ? or 450/m ?
Can you give some more info ??

Regards,
Daniel]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 10 Mar 2014 00:11:10 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: christoph http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7706 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7706 as well with your numbers something seems not to add up.
Just to be sure:
total costs 27.000.000 €
14.400 pe.
28000 m of sewer (1,94 m/pe.).

The number of 1.875 €/pe is astronomical to me.
If you check: an extremly expensive treatment plant for 14.400 pe should not be above 900 €/pe (that is 3 times more than a treatment plant in Europe (with cold climate) and 10 times more than in Brazil (a climate closer to Bonnaire). So the min price for the sewer would be 975 €/pe or 450 €/m. I think that is not possible under any circumstances?
Where is my error?

Christoph]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:10:52 +0000
Re: The most expensive [VACUUM] sewer in the world - on island Bonaire, NL - by: daniel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7705 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/6921-the-most-expensive-vacuum-sewer-in-the-world-on-island-bonaire-nl#7705 My calculation of EUR 192/ population equivalent in my reaction should of course be: EUR 1875/p.e This is still not astronomical and far away from the EUR 50,000 that Mr. Joep Dohmen quoted in the NRC of sept 2013

Daniel]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Sun, 09 Mar 2014 21:33:58 +0000