SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Tue, 21 Oct 2014 03:46:53 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Re: Do you know about wastewater disposal in deep wells in US? - by: canaday http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/9934-do-you-know-about-wastewater-disposal-in-deep-wells-in-us#10610 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/9934-do-you-know-about-wastewater-disposal-in-deep-wells-in-us#10610
The BBC Radio Discovery Program just published --Urine Trouble: What Is In Our Water?--

www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/discovery

Some of the interviewees found significant effects of trace amounts of pharmaceuticals that come out in human urine, cannot get eliminated in wastewater treatment (WWT), and find their way into rivers. Other interviewees (who work in WWT) talk about how efficiently they get these chemical out of the water (and one of them said she likes the smell of WWT )

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:20:49 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: petecranston http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10599 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10599
Interesting thread: two comments

  1. (Early note: complaining about wikipedia editor software from the Susana forum editor strikes me as deeply ironic!
  2. Coming at the question of wikipedia or akvopedia etc from the perspective of audience perhaps helps, since it seems to me that a lot of the conversation is about the function and use of those platforms as communication and knowledge sharing channels. People who really know a subject are unlikely to use wikipedia, or indeed any other open platform. Don't most investigations into people's information seeking and knowledge sharing habits show that people start with friends and colleagues - by voice, mail, SMS or, sometimes, social media - and, then go to specialist forums and only then go to online generalist sites. The audiences that will learn from well written, authoritative and well-referenced wikipedia pages is a non-specialist one, almost by definition. But that includes many, many people important to the wider aims of Susana, including policy actors, journalists, students, civil servants.... and so on. And unless they are specialists they won't know of Akvopedia et all. So I applaud Elisabeth and the group working with her in their determination to get the most-accessed online reference site source more up-to-date and informative
  3. Susana already has a structure that could help that process, based around the working groups. What about each working group taking on the task of bringing up-to-date those wikipedia pages that relate to their specialist areas, and where they don't exist, creating them, and making sure they in turn reference more specialist sites with in-depth information?


Cheers

Pete]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 20 Oct 2014 03:08:13 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: WikiDocJames http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10592 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10592 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External...rmally_to_be_avoided

Wikipedia is very careful about external links. We struggle with people trying to promote themselves via Wikipedia when we want people to write encyclopedic content on Wikipedia.

Best
James]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Sun, 19 Oct 2014 06:21:52 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: canaday http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10591 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10591
This is great and I hope to find time to join in.

I would like to promote the idea that any college professors on the Forum could assign writing Wikipedia pages to their students, as an academic exercise that will do some public good.

Let's remember to add lots of external links to Forum threads, SuSanA library items and our various webpages.

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:31:42 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: WikiDocJames http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10583 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10583
Here is the WikiProject for medicine en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine

It allows one to "collect" articles associated with the subject area. And allowed automated creation of pages such as this that list articles within that subject area by pageviews en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProj...dicine/Popular_pages

All this of course takes a fair bit of work to set up. More important to concentrate on improving articles right now IMO

James]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:03:45 +0000
How do you like the new or improved Wikipedia pages about SuSanA, dry toilets and pit latrines? - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10582-how-do-you-like-the-new-or-improved-wikipedia-pages-about-susana-dry-toilets-and-pit-latrines#10582 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10582-how-do-you-like-the-new-or-improved-wikipedia-pages-about-susana-dry-toilets-and-pit-latrines#10582 forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any...2&start=24#10580) but I am starting this new thread specifically to draw your attention to three new or improved Wikipedia pages that I have worked on in the last few days (without spending days and days on it; probably approx. 2 hours per page so far):

I have so far worked on three pages:


The SuSanA page was very out of date and was written like an advertisement.
I am encouraging anyone else to improve it further now that I have given it this overhaul.

Note that this is different to a “normal” document where you have to get approval first and it goes through many loops before it is put online.

You can put feedback here or you could simply edit the Wikipedia page as well (or use the talk page behind it to discuss things).

Note that we are meant to provide third party references, i.e. not just cite our own publications. So far I only could think of the one by Pete Cranston which I have added. If any of you know any other document where SuSana is mentioned, described or criticized, please bring it to my attention.

As I said, Wikipedia pages are different to other documents. It has to be objective and anyone is allowed to edit it. Of course I am now keeping a watch on this page which means I get e-mails from Wikipedia when this page is edited by someone else.

By the way, the visual editor of Wikipedia is super easy to use, it is just like writing in Word.

For the SuSanA page, please check out the photos that I have used. Do you like them?

Note that Wikipedia pages are meant to be objective, so this is not an advertising page about SuSanA! I have added a section on “challenges” (before I called it “criticisms”) and probably this section could be edited a few times and evolve with time - and people may not agree with what I have identified as challenges, I am very open to suggestions here… Please feel free to give me your feedback (either by editing the Wikipedia page directly, or by using the Talk page in Wikipedia or by putting your feedback here in this thread)*:

Challenges and difficulties [edit source | editbeta]
SuSanA has been criticised by some in the WASH sector for a perceived dominance of the ecosan theme in SuSanA due to the perception that two of its founding organisations had a strong focus in ecosan: Stockholm Environment Institute and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit (GIZ) GmbH. Others have criticised SuSanA for being too focussed on technologies and sanitation systems (rather than on non-technical issues), too dominated by people from the Global North, too dominated by GIZ who leads the secretariat and for being too "academic" and far removed from the realities on the ground. SuSanA has no regional nodes, offices or secretariats. It also has limited impact so far in the non-English speaking parts of the world, notably Latin America, Russia or Central Asia.

The SuSanA core group has reacted to these criticisms by defining a clear mission statement in 2014, a roadmap for 2013 onwards and by hosting an open discussion forum where such issues can be discussed.[3] SuSanA is continually evolving based on the inputs, requirements and activities by its members.

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_Sanitation_Alliance

Also for the dry toilets page, I have added something that could be debated in particular, see the last heading here under "Debates around dry toilets":
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_toilet

I hope this will encourage some of you to get involved in Wikipedia, this amazing knowledge management tool of our times.

Regards,
Elisabeth


* I wrote this part just off the cuff, not in my role of moderator of the forum or assistant to the SuSanA secretariat nor as a SuSanA core group member, nor after consulting about this with others - it is just something that I have thought up and which I am sure is far from perfect, which is why I am asking for your input. It is just meant to be a start and meant to provide the needed objectivity to this page.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:03:04 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10580 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10580
To practice what I preach, and to try things out, I have taken the plunge and become a writer on Wikipedia!

I have so far worked on three pages:

I invite you all to check out my work and to edit it, improve it, change it and to get involved! If you don't like anything: no problem! Just change it or when it's a more significant change, then use the "talk" page that is available with each Wikipedia page to discuss things before changing it. Note that any change that is made can easily be reverted if necessary (this is important especially in the case of vandalism).

Christoph: you mentioned the old editor tool. I agree with you, that one must have been very difficult to use! All the articles I have worked on so far have the "Edit beta" visual editor (see tab at the top of the Wikipedia page) and it's just like writing in Word.

You will see that the pit latrine page now has the schematic from the second version of the Compendium. I was able to take it straight from the eCompendium that Dorothee had mentioned here (after clarifying with her about the licence issue): forum.susana.org/forum/categories/89-new...12&start=12#9948

All pages that I work on will cite documents that I think are important, e.g. of course the compendium, also the GIZ technology reviews, and in selected places I have also cited a forum discussion (the latter is not preferred by Wikipedia but in the absence of another document to cite I think it is better than nothing).

What I have learnt so far:
  • It is fun and might also be addictive, I have to admit.
  • It does take up time, even though the individual edits are fast but one gets more and more ideas on how to improve the pages...
  • The visual editor tool is very easy to use.
  • It is tremendously helpful to have a mentor at hand (James Heilmann) who can quickly help me with little things and answer all my questions (of course there are also lots of question-answer pages available on Wikipedia itself but you know what it's like: asking a real person is so much easier). James is very, very knowledgeable on Wikipedia.
  • For Wikipedia citing good, reliable references is very important.
  • I find I can write articles quite fast because I can draw on other publications which I have written in the past, previous posts I wrote on the forum, other publications that I know are good (e.g. Compendium) and so forth.
  • I also find I can draw on other good work we have done in the past, e.g. the bibliographical information from the SuSanA library is excellent when I want to cite something.
  • In terms of photos, I can quickly pick out photos from our enormous photo collection on Flickr (photos have already been transferred to the Wikimedia Commons area in the past: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:File...Sanitation_Alliance_(SuSanA))

James is by the way working on an open textbook of medicine, see project description here:
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

and e.g. the page on pit latrines would be included there because it is a page that people with a medical background will refer to.

Do I sound overly excited? Perhaps I am.

But I think having the "right" information on some of the key sanitation pages on Wikipedia will help us (= sustainable sanitation people) further to become more "mainstream" in the WASH sector and in general.

And as I said: anyone who uses Wikipedia to get other information has a bit of a moral duty to also give back about topics that one knows a bit about, don't we? Out of 4000 SuSanA members, there's got to be a dozen who will join me by also spending an hour to improve Wikipedia pages on sanitation here or there?

I will also start a separate thread about those Wikipedia pages that I have worked on so far (in case there is specific feedback), as this thread here is getting a bit long and should remain to focus on the more general and strategic issues on how Wikipedia could be used.

Regards,
Elisabeth]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:43:18 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: WikiDocJames http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10524 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10524 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProj...anslation_Task_Force

People of course are free to translate content independent of this effort.

James]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:59:50 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10523 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10523 you in particular put that into such a queue? Do you have some additional authority compared to normal people because you have reached a certain Wikipedian status from your previous work? Or could anyone put it in the translation queue?

And then how are the people doing the translation work (apart from being volunteers of course) and which languages are they translating it into?

Sorry for my basic questions, but it's all new to me, and I really appreciate being able to ask someone who is an expert on Wikipedia.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:49:43 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: WikiDocJames http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10522 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10522
To put an article in the translation queue you need to 1) improve the lead of the article (at most three or four paragraphs) 2) it must be well referenced 3) it must be in simple English 4) you convince me that it is an important topic, that the above three have occurred and I put it in the queue...

With respect to pit latrine, only the first 4 paragraphs are being translated. I am happy enough with it. The article could be better though and am happy to have others edit it.

Other good topics could be waste disposal, open defecation and garbage dump.]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:31:32 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10512 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10512

It's interesting that you don't need to have a login. James can perhaps tell us what the disadvantage of editing without a login is? I know one advantage of editing with a login: today I made an edit to a page that Manual is watching (the page on Jordan had one of those broken links that I mentioned above: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Jordan). Because he is "watching" that page, he got notified of that change and then he sent me an automated thank-you note, thereby acknowledging the change I had done. That's neat, I think.

James, can you explain how that queue for translation works exactly? Who can decide to put something into such a queue? How long are articles in such a queue for typically?
I know you have worked on the page on pit latrines lately (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_toilet), I assume you are happy with your page and does that mean you have put it into the queue for translation?

If I have some spare time this week, I plan to edit your page on pit latrines a bit. I look forward to adding a bit of objective information on "when are pit latrines not appropriate" with some very good, credible references to cite. Watch this page on Wikipedia.

If you were to tackle any other Wikipedia pages on sanitation-related topics that people from the medical field might be interested in (and search for on Wikipedia) which ones would you - as a doctor - recommend? Do you already have some particular sanitation pages in mind?
(if this is not inter-sectoral collaboration at its best then I don't know what is )

Regards,
Elisabeth]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 13 Oct 2014 20:20:58 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: Mschiffler http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10509 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10509
The Brazil water and sanitation article was one of the earlier articles and has some serious gaps in terms of references when I look at it today, seven years later. The reference for water use is definitely missing. This shows again the importance of using references, something on which I have become more careful in water and sanitaiton sector profiles written at later dates.

I saw you edited the link to the National Water and Sanitation Information System SNIS. When I last looked at it years ago it had a lot of disaggregated data for each municipality, but I found it hard to find aggregated national average data, especially since I do not speak Portuguese. If you could update the data in the article and introduce references that would be great.

Manuel]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 13 Oct 2014 16:40:07 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: christoph http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10498 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10498 I didn't even know one could edit a Wikipedia page without having a login? Did you create an "anonymous" login or how did it work? I think you have to have a login but you do not have to provide your e-mail address, right?

I didn´t know that either - but no - you just click on edit and start to edit. Click on save and it is done. Too easy? Seems to work for Wikipedia, so it should be ok. (they register your IP if you are not logged in)
Christoph]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 13 Oct 2014 12:00:54 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: muench http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10496 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10496
Your message brought a smile to my face! Glad to know that you are trying things out. And thank you as well to Manuel for his post in this thread, explaining to us his experiences.

I didn't even know one could edit a Wikipedia page without having a login? Did you create an "anonymous" login or how did it work? I think you have to have a login but you do not have to provide your e-mail address, right?

Secondly about the editor. Well, Wikipedia must have known for a while that this is a weak point of their system and there is a new editor available called the Visual Editor which works like Word. It is so far in the beta version. At the top right in Wikipedia you see a little tab called "beta" (maybe you only see it when you are logged in).
I actually tried to use it for a page that I am trying to edit but did not yet succeed. Here is a description about this beta visual editor:
www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Beta_Features/General

On wikis which have VisualEditor enabled as an opt-in, you can choose to switch it on for your account as part of the Beta Features programm.

VisualEditor provides a WYSIWYG-like rich text editor that lets you edit most MediaWiki content, including templates, references and text. More features are being developed, and will be enabled as other Beta Features during testing before being rolled out to all users.

When enabled, VisualEditor provides a second editing tab, labelled "Edit" (or "Edit beta" on the English Wikipedia), and relabels the existing editor for wikitext to "Edit source".

If you have any feedback about VisualEditor, please comment on the general feedback page. There may also be a local feedback page on your wiki.


Imagine once they have perfected their visual editor tool, perhaps the number of active Wikipedians will sharply increase again? (I heard it's been stagnant for some time)

It's great to be learning together on this.

Edit 5 minutes later: It seems some Wikipedia pages have the new visual editor already enabled, some not.

Regards,
Elisabeth]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 13 Oct 2014 11:18:06 +0000
Re: Health information on Wikipedia is going from strength to strength - can we do the same for sanitation (together with others)? - by: christoph http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10493 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/39-any-other-topic-related-to-sanitation-or-to-susana/10174-health-information-on-wikipedia-is-going-from-strength-to-strength-can-we-do-the-same-for-sanitation-together-with-others?limit=12&start=36#10493 very clear and motivating post.
Your post encouraged me to have a look at the wiki country sanitation page of Brazil which you did, in order to understand better "the making of" - never thought about that until now.
There are numbers for water use which do not have a reference. How does that work?
I added a sentence and really it is easy, but it might be better to have a login or is that not important if I don´t care (or makes it easier to be a "trusted writer"?

A message to the secretariat...a) you are well trained to edit Wikipedia when you use Susana
b) there are editors which are worse than ours

Thanks again, really easy to alter things which are wrong or missing and as a frequent user of Wikipedia for many aspects, I really felt I should invest some moments to improve.

Christoph]]>
Any other topic related to sanitation or to SuSanA Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:57:01 +0000