SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Fri, 30 Jan 2015 00:24:46 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: canaday http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11723 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11723
We have instructed some communities here in the Amazon to use wood ash, but the consensus later was that they had to be very careful to collect all of the ash or there was not enough for the UDDTs. And it is key for the cover material to never be lacking, which is all the more reason to use abundant materials and to recycle.

Ash could potentially be part of the mix, but my thinking is that we do not want to try to kill everything with pH, but rather allow the beneficial soil microbes, fighting on their home turf, to wipe out the pathogenic fecal microbes.

Limestone may be very abundant, but its transformation into powdered lime is very labor- or capital-intensive.

There must be some forest there somewhere. I would go out into the forest with a 1x1 cm mesh to separate out the leaves, sticks and roots. The same mesh can be used to sift the dried and decomposed barnyard manure. Even if you do not manage to get very much, a little bit of the right microbes goes a long way. (Please share these messages with the DNAE people; it would great to get their perspective.)

Rice hulls are great and should be very abundant there, so I would put 50% rice hulls.

Wood ash might best be mixed into the urine to improve its fertilizer value, as has been shown in several recent studies.

For the study, you might have 2-3 types of cover material, one being the mix I suggest, another being wood ash.

I suggest only filling the sacks to about 20 liters, so that they do not get too heavy. So changing the sacks can be part of a weekly routine, even if less feces have been collected.

(Thanks for pointing out that you were referring to my video. It seemed you were mentioning another.)

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Wed, 21 Jan 2015 11:23:30 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11717 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11717
Sure, I'll take all the variables you can throw at this project ... as long as they come with your experience in how to work with them.**

I already omitted sawdust (not that plentiful), and will add D&D manure and soil. Really feel we must try firepit ash or powdered lime to raise pH; lots of 3 rock fires and limestone in Sumba. Your advice is noted.

Cheers,
Stew

** A couple years ago I participated in a joint Rotary Wasrag-UNC exercise to try and provide over 100 variables in various categories, in an effort to semi-automatically identify issues, weight them, and improve the quality of design in WaSH systems. The automation proved fruitless, though the categories did function as a checklist; and surveyors helped us a lot due to that preparation. There's no substitute for local knowledge of culture and conditions, experience in the field, and the wisdom to apply things judiciously. That's why I'm here, learning.]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Wed, 21 Jan 2015 04:06:47 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: canaday http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11716 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11716
Great discussion. Please do not worry about it going new directions.

About the cover material, I would suggest trying to include some kind of soil and/or dried and decomposed barnyard manure. Our climatic conditions here in the Amazon are comparable to those of Indonesia and when we used a mix of wood ashes and sawdust, we had a lot more problems with smell and flies than we do now with the use of recycled cover material. This could even be a new variable for your study (in case you are ready to handle more variables).

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Wed, 21 Jan 2015 03:47:05 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: JKMakowka http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11715 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11715
The problem is that in such a resource poor setting this will seem wasteful sooner or later even to well trained caretakers (or more likely to the next guy who takes over after the well trained one gets fed up)... corners will be cut and "annoying" steps conveniently forgotten.

So yeah, complex problem ]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 23:47:16 +0000
Re: UDDT Wikipedia Page - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/10743-uddt-wikipedia-page#11714 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/10743-uddt-wikipedia-page#11714
I agree with the risks related to Otji toilet, plus allowing urine into the feces, then draining it below, makes it more complicated to deal with liquid containing bacteria/eggs, than if one works harder to design a better separation bowl in the first instance.

The Coanda is just an "effect", a tendency, not a requirement that fluid do this. And ensuring that all users will sit is no easy task. Nevertheless, if one is going to manufacture a sit-toilet bowl including the panel and capture ridge is a good idea.

I'm reminded of the still suits from Dune by Frank Herbert ... maybe we should focus on lightweight, breathable membrane pants which capture urine in a pocket, filter, then provide a tube upward, with a bite valve to suck on as one is out and about?

Stew

PS Many Kudos, Elisabeth, for your work on the UDDT Wikipedia page, and helping this community understand how to participate. A fabulous service.]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:50:00 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11713 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11713
And anyway, my main point was that the informed villager person is going to have to contend with varying conditions on their own. Whilst you might be able to capture some of the variation with your research project, I'm not sure that you could ever control all of the variables in a village setting w/o any kind of measurement equipment.]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:31:36 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11712 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11712
However, I appreciate all that I'm learning in the dialogue.
Thanks to all participants. (What about the 100 or so that are just viewing ... do you have an opinion on the original questions?)

Stew]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:30:31 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11711 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11711
It is helpful ... but it would be good if we could noodle a little more focused set of parameters. I could provide elevation, ambient temps, rainfall by month, sizes and construction of all containers, info about foodstuffs and diet, water intake, if that would help. The location is close to the equator, so 12 hrs sunlight. There are two monsoon seasons, one with longer and heavier rain.

I don't expect we'll get to a precise formula, but with the experience base here in Susana, could that data and a discussion narrow the design options and help focus our efforts?

Stew]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:27:47 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11710 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11710 Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:22:02 +0000 Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: denniskl http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11709 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11709
As I understand it, what your testing will do is allow either verification that the management process is effective in achieving the objectives of safe waste management; if not, then you can finetune the system until it is safe, correct?

Once established, the then-defined SOP can be followed by the community with reasonable assurance that the process is safe. And that verification can also be used by other communities (with similar environmental circumstances I guess), based on that data

Different environments will require some individual testing but again, the learnings from the testing regime (equipment, measuring process, data collection etc) can also be used by others too in other locations.

Would that be about right Stew?]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:00:11 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11708 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11708 canaday wrote:
Hi Stew,

Please post the link to the video you mention on triangular solar ovens.


It's at the top of your your thread

I believe the solar dryer box will be rainproof, inexpensive, at least as practical. At present I prefer emptying bins and stirring regularly - it ought to breakup of lumps, dehydration, and makes it more uniform, all faster. We may try the sacks-in-the-box approach, also or later. To many options now will confuse things.

I think you'd find the cover material acceptable - mix of dried minced vegetable matter, husks/hulls, healthy dose of firepit ash, etc. There is presently no dried decomposed manure, the soil is primarily limestone so no rich soil, nor previous UDDTs.


What detention time are you looking at in the ovens?

That's the whole point of my OP - we will be measuring the appropriate amount of time, not starting with an assumption. My goal is to move under 2 months in the collector-dryers; shorter is better.

I think the mentioned expert was talking more from conventionalism than logic. Pathogenic bacteria are much happier in the water and wet surfaces of a flush toilet than in a pile of dry material (esp if there are a lot of soil microbes there) or the the urine funnel getting rinsed frequently with pure urine. Flush toilets can also get plugged and overflow, plus when flushed they send contaminated water droplets all over.
www.chekhovskalashnikov.com/water-sanitation/


Yes, the epidemiologist understands at least some of that.

Those dry toilets were most likely abandoned because the users never fully understood their benefits and proper use. Who knows? They may have also had design flaws, but most likely it was the lack of socialization and follow-up.


They were compost toilets. Yes ... I've asked for background info, studies; so far none provided, so we have no clue.

When do you go to Indonesia and how long will you stay there? Any chance of setting up some long-term volunteers to help with follow-up, education, etc.? (They could also help with other aspects of community development.)

Leave in 10 days. There is a ToT program, volunteer trainers paid stipends, who do CLTS and handwash training. We will train them on the UDDTs, now that they are being installed and getting ready.

Thanks for your kind wishes, and gratefully received advice!
Stew]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 16:37:08 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11707 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11707
I expect the pathogen destruction to vary enormously, depending on moisture levels, the kind of handling, the ambient temperatures, the level of mixing and so on. Fundamentally you'd have to decide what an 'acceptable' level of pathogens would be and how likely it is that your responsible villager would continue doing things in the optimal way.

Is that specific enough?]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 16:26:06 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: StewMartin http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11706 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11706
Please don't be confused by the interim measurements that verify a simpler end process. The end process involves a single vault with baskets, emptied by a family member in a few months, then reused. A central storage-dryer operated by a responsible villager until time and temp have turned it into dry crumbled humus; then mixed into topsoil in gardens. And of course spreading urine, cleaning surfaces and handwashing.

Please be specific ... what do you think is too complicated about it? Or cannot be scaled up? All the literature suggests this is quite within the realm of normal UDDT projects.

Thanks for the link on health measurement ... do you have others?

Stew]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 16:20:39 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: canaday http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11705 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11705
Please post the link to the video you mention on triangular solar ovens.

I would not worry too much about ventilation of the oven. If it is not sealed, the humidity will get out. It seems more important to make sure rain does not get in, keep the price down, and make sure that it is easy and practical to use. If the sacks are supported on slats of wood, that wood would likely rot quickly.

What cover material are you planning to use? See my discussion of the advantages of recycling cover material:
www.chekhovskalashnikov.com/human-waste-disposal/
One could get started by including a percentage of dried and decomposed barnyard manure or black forest soil ... or there might be material from previous UDDTs.

I also suggest it is important to have a percentage of ''fluffy'' material that does not break down quickly, like rice hulls, to allow more air to flow through the pile.

What detention time are you looking at in the ovens?

I would suggest no turning of the material, since no one would want to do that. The feces can just stay in the sacks until they are not feces any more.

I think the mentioned expert was talking more from conventionalism than logic. Pathogenic bacteria are much happier in the water and wet surfaces of a flush toilet than in a pile of dry material (esp if there are a lot of soil microbes there) or the the urine funnel getting rinsed frequently with pure urine. Flush toilets can also get plugged and overflow, plus when flushed they send contaminated water droplets all over.
www.chekhovskalashnikov.com/water-sanitation/

Those dry toilets were most likely abandoned because the users never fully understood their benefits and proper use. Who knows? They may have also had design flaws, but most likely it was the lack of socialization and follow-up.

When do you go to Indonesia and how long will you stay there? Any chance of setting up some long-term volunteers to help with follow-up, education, etc.? (They could also help with other aspects of community development.)

Good luck and thanks for this discussion.

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 13:55:29 +0000
Re: How to measure temperature, humidity and pH for UDDTs in primitive Sumba - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11704 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/34-urine-diversion-systems-includes-uddt-and-ud-flush-toilet/11647-how-to-measure-temperature-humidity-and-ph-for-uddts-in-primitive-sumba?limit=12&start=36#11704
PF provides a water seal, protecting people healthwise; a large USAID-sponsored project used composting toilets and it went badly; people in Honduras believe water-based toilets are better, they are a status symbol; and UDDTs are a lot more work, and people may not do it, so there is more risk of failure, or work to be done. Also, notes from WEDC and others he has provided, talk about a) must have agricultural use (here we have modest crop growth) and b) bury resulting product under 6" soil. And recently he cites a DNA expert who says there is a chance for cross-boundary transmission of resistant bacteria in ecosan toilets, which wouldn't be a risk for PF toilets. Having said that, I do think that he and WMI will treat this as a learning opportunity, make a fair comparison, and measure things best they can ... treat it as a bonafide learning opportunity.


I'm curious to hear what 'went badly' with the USAID project - but more why you think there is a lower risk of pathogen transfer in a pour-flush system. I'm not sure I've seen anything suggesting this before.

I recognize that the 30-35C diurnal highs in a concrete/stone vault won't be sufficient, and we selected single vault for various reasons, so that's why we're focused now on central storage, aeration/turning and solar heating - to finish the job. I believe acceptance of UDDTs hinges in part on realizing benefits in a short cycle time. So what if we could have good airflow while in vaults, remove half-dried mixes in 2-3 months to central bins, finish the drying and kill (most) bugs in another 1-2 months. A crop cycle (led by urine, adding the fecal humus later) will help acceptance within a year. Training and behavior change will be reinforced. We've planned this as a 2 year project for all the toilets to be constructed and most monitored for quite awhile, retraining as needed. Then a few more years of monitoring.


I'm sure you know, the major risks of a UDDT is in the emptying, so whilst deep burial solves some problems, it doesn't change the fact that someone has to handle the material to your centralised bins.

I tend to agree with Elisabeth - I think it is likely you'll prove that your system is too ineffective/complicated to be scaled up. What then?

In terms of health questionaire protocols, I'd think that would be relatively easy (easier) to do. In India there has been good progress with verbal autopsies (which I appreciate is not necessarily the same thing) to give meaningful data. See www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/12/5]]>
Urine diversion systems (includes UDDT and UD flush toilet) Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:54:51 +0000