Vaccine injuries, various discussions
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TOPIC: Vaccine injuries, various discussions

Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 00:16 #8448

  • KeithBell
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Elisabeth, I also find it interesting re: BMGF funding. Here's another meeting (2012) they funded:
www.keystonesymposia.org/11T1

My understanding, and please correct/educate me if I'm wrong, is BMGF is mainly interested in this subject as a way to improve vaccine efficacy where probiotics will be the next wave of vaccine adjuvants.

What's not commonly considered is how the problem has become generational as microbially imbalanced mothers give birth to imbalanced children. The problem begins in the womb. Vaccines may add insult to injury.

Re: Malnutrition vs. Malabsorption (and environmental enteropathy, EE) 05 May 2014 09:35 #8450

  • joeturner
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Vaccines may add insult to injury.


Rubbish. And not only that - dangerous, irresponsible rubbish.
I don't work for anyone, I am a philosopher interested to think about how we think about WASH and sanitation. All thoughts are mine alone, I am responsible for any errors.

Previously trained and worked as a Soil Scientist and worked on projects composting sewage sludge.
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Re: Malnutrition vs. Malabsorption (and environmental enteropathy, EE) 05 May 2014 14:18 #8454

  • KeithBell
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OK, Joe and Elisabeth, show me a single study about how any of the childhood vaccines affect microbial balance.

There are none, why not? Yet we have well-known vaccine injuries. Please do some research before dismissing vaccine injury as "rubbish," quite unprofessional.

There is a single study I've found over months of research detailing gram-negative bacteria significantly increased by the cholera vaccine, not a good thing. Have you heard of gram-negative bacteria, Joe? Of course they have purpose, but they're also the focus of antibiotic resistance and virulence in translocation (that means they move from the gut to other parts of the body, causing infection). See here, the ONLY study about how a vaccine shifts flora, 2004:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14965834

I believe flora shift is the mechanism behind vaccine injury. Please view my research links here:
www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153206...602&l=f24fb4c83b
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 14:38 by KeithBell.

Re: Malnutrition vs. Malabsorption (and environmental enteropathy, EE) 05 May 2014 14:31 #8456

  • joeturner
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No, you're ok, I'm not playing.


++++++++++++

Edit by moderator (EvM):
I have moved the topic of vaccine injury into a separate thread (this one) in order to keep things more focussed.
I don't work for anyone, I am a philosopher interested to think about how we think about WASH and sanitation. All thoughts are mine alone, I am responsible for any errors.

Previously trained and worked as a Soil Scientist and worked on projects composting sewage sludge.
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 15:14 by muench.

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 15:31 #8460

  • JKMakowka
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They reason why this is such a "sensitive topic" is that in a developing-country context vaccines are generally understood to do way more good than they could potentially do harm even when taking all those potential (but in the majority probably false) arguments into account that vaccine critics field. Kids dying of measles or tetanus are a serious topic, as are disabilities caused by polio... which is easily forgotten from a developed country point of view.

Add to that all the conspiracy theories (people being infected with HIV or injected contraceptives etc. on purpose) and religious fanatics campaigns (heath workers doing vaccination campaigns are being killed in Pakistan for example) against vaccinations, and you got a very, very sensitive topic.

Thus please don't spread additional FUD by mixing up Environmental Enteropathy and what you call "vaccine injuries" as that is a topic of minor concern only (most likely).

That said: an interesting topic is so called "per-mature immune system aging" likely cause by Environmental Enteropathy, which lessens the effectiveness of childhood vaccinations.
Krischan Makowka
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete” - Buckminster Fuller
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 15:45 by JKMakowka.
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Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 16:28 #8466

  • KeithBell
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Agreed, it's a very sensitive topic. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't question vaccination. Thanks to Elisabeth for making this a separate thread; excellent moderation, as usual, best of any forum I've experienced.

Vaccine injury is viewed as gastrointestinal, that's why it's pertinent to the discussion about Environmental Enteropathy. When there is brain injury caused by vaccination, the mechanism may be a gut-brain phenomenon.

There's plenty of distrust of the pharmaceutical industry in developing countries, including and especially BMGF and their work in concert with major pharmaceuticals where funding dwarfs sanitation projects:
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/wi...ea-pigs-6261919.html

www.naturalnews.com/042580_india_big_pharma_drug_trials.html

Polio is now making a major comeback. It's a sanitation issue, yet viewed more as a vaccination issue. Today's news:
www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/health/world-...ealth-emergency.html
abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/spread-p...h-emergency-23586786

Measles mortality, by the way, was largely eradicated well before the measles vaccine was introduced in 1963 due to improved nutrition and sanitation. The same can be argued for many vaccines.
business.financialpost.com/2014/04/16/la...ld-story-of-measles/
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 16:29 by KeithBell.

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 16:43 #8467

  • JKMakowka
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I am not saying that it is totally wrong, i.e. you are right that more research is needed in that regard, but that is really specialist's research.

And yes sanitation is very much underfunded, but so is actually vaccination research; just a bit less so. No point in arguing which deserves more.

P.S.: I heard that Measles has gotten a serious problem again in the last decade or so, since much more dangerous strains surfaced (but I am not an expert on that topic).
Krischan Makowka
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete” - Buckminster Fuller

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 16:56 #8469

  • KeithBell
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I'm no expert either, JK, but would estimate vaccination funding by far exceeds sanitation. Looking at BMGF budgets in concert with pharmaceuticals, I'd estimate sanitation at about 2% of total where vaccination receives the lion's share. It's as if sanitation is a publicity stunt hiding the vaccination agenda, which I realize isn't true, but we have backward priorities.

It's time to breathe new life into the age-old Sanitation vs. Vaccination debate which took place over 100 years ago.
www.whale.to/vaccine/sanitation.html

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 19:17 #8472

  • KeithBell
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Polio is a sanitation issue. Vaccines fail due to environmental enteropathy still confused with malnutrition. Here's an article about the latest study:
www.icddrb.org/media-centre/news/4188-st...developing-countries

Here's today's WHO alert stating polio a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern"
www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=74340091...p;type=1&theater

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 20:39 #8473

  • muench
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I really don't think that this forum is the place to have general debates about the mertis and demerits of vaccinations. I am sure there are other, better forums for that.
Otherwise we might as well start debating topics like nuclear power, genetically modified foods, whether vaccinations lead to more autism incidence etc.
So let's not go there, at least not on this forum please.

With regards to this statement of Keith:
It's time to breathe new life into the age-old Sanitation vs. Vaccination debate which took place over 100 years ago.


I think this is absolutely the wrong debate to have: sanitation VERSUS vaccination. It should be sanitation AND vaccination. It's like saying sanitation VERSUS sport programmes for children, or sanitation VERSUS anti-smoking campaigns (taking two other preventative health measures).

And obviously in an ideal world, we would have wonderfully sanitary surroundings and yes, there would be less or even no polio (because yes, polio is related to poor sanitation, we had that here on the forum: forum.susana.org/forum/categories/26-hea...-and-poor-sanitation )

But luckily we do have a vaccination against polio as well (as well as improving sanitation) and if there is a working vaccination against polio and if there are amazing successes in eradicating polio worldwide and if it's clear that the only remaining pockets of polio is where government are reducing their attention on polio vaccinations or even stopping it for whatever reasons (e.g. civil war in Syria) conspiracy theories (Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan (?)) - then I think personally that it is crazy to argue against polio vaccination by saying "no vaccinations, it's a sanitation issue".

And let's not complain that not enough money is put into sanitation (by donors like the BMGF) and "too much" into vaccination. I think amazing progress has been made with probably more attention and funds given to sanitation than ever before in history, at least in the donor context, we should rather celebrate that and push for more, rather than lament that other sectors are getting more... That's just wasting time in my opinion.

Ah, now I have done it, I have contributed to the discussion thread even though I said to myself I would stay completely out of it!

But my point from above I still stick to: this is not the forum for general debates about whether to have our children vaccinated or not, please have such debates in other forums.
Dr. Elisabeth von Muench
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Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 05 May 2014 22:39 #8475

  • KeithBell
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I'll go with that, Elisabeth, though it should be noted that you are responsible for creating this thread, no? In its original context, it was a tangent about vaccination as one potential cause of environmental enteropathy/gut dysbiosis.

Speaking of context, I think it's important for people to understand the irony that a singular organization, BMGF, spearheads funding for these two disparate issues: vaccination and sanitation, by far more about vaccination. We have different views where I see them as potentially opposed to one another.

Moreover, it's a very timely subject given polio in today's news as public health emergency where most people believe the only solution is vaccination. But let me be clear and state that I've never said "no vaccination." My intent here is to bolster sanitation as solution.
www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/health/polio-...rom-israel.html?_r=0
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 22:49 by KeithBell.

Re: Vaccine injuries, various discussions 06 May 2014 17:51 #8494

  • KeithBell
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Yesterday, WHO declared polio an international health emergency. Today's CNN story about polio in Pakistan:
www.cnn.com/2014/05/06/health/pakistan-india-polio/index.html

"Over 43 million people in Pakistan defecate in the open"
www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-6-215001-...defecate-in-the-open

Sanitation and vaccination need to work in tandem. The virus is known to spread via sewage.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/Sa....cms?intenttarget=no

Unfortunately, the polio vaccine is associated with vaccine injury including 48,000 cases of paralysis in India. It's been said the polio vaccine now causes more disease than the virus it is supposed to fight (Scientific American).

This paper about vaccine-derived polio viruses (VDPV) in sewage where the vaccine itself leads to polio calls into question cessation of polio vaccination: www.plosone.org/article/authors/info%3Ad...journal.pone.0000069

Author of above paper recommends that health authorities continue immunization using inactivated vaccines (IPV) to keep their populations safe.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107161802.htm

In 2000, the U.S. switched to the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV).
www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/polio-vaccine-ipv

IPV does not stop transmission of virus, so OPV is used in polio-endemic countries, even with its risk of paralysis and VDPV:
www.polioeradication.org/Polioandprevent...ctivatedpoliovaccine(IPV).aspx
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