SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://forum.susana.org/ Mon, 24 Nov 2014 22:33:56 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://forum.susana.org/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/icons/rss.png SuSanA - Forum http://forum.susana.org/ en-gb Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: madeleine http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11113 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11113 Good to hear from you! Just to say you need to be very persistent when it comes to regulations.
Her is an extract from the document that guarantee that it ´s allowed to use CERTIFIED treated urine, blackwater and sludge . The technical requirements are all in Swedish but the abstract is in English and intersting to share.
So maybe that is the way to proceed to make sure to get your product certified for use in agriculture.
Cheers
Madeleine

Certification rules for plant nutrient rich fractions from
on-site sewage systems
After permission from the SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden (SP),
manufacturers may use the quality label P-mark to mark their product. Before marking
permit is given it must be verified that the product fulfils the requirements contained in a
standard, or equivalent, recognised by SP. An agreement must also be made concerning
continuous quality control of the product.

This report contains the quality requirements for certified reuse on agricultural land of
plant nutrient rich fractions from on-site sewage systems. Two categories of products
could be certified; I) separated fractions like urine and blackwater and II) not separated
fractions like sludge from package wastewater treatment systems. For separated fractions
the is no size limit for the number of connected persons to the system in order to certify
the product. For not separated fractions only systems treating wastewater up to maximum
50 persons can be certified.

The continuous quality control is performed mainly by the manufacturer. The
manufacturers control is checked through inspections made by SP. These inspections are
carried out at storage and/or treatment facility for the collected material. The main
purpose with the control is to verify that the quality requirements for certified reuse of
plant nutrient rich fractions from on-site sewage systems are fulfilled.]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:54:53 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: bracken http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11112 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11112 In my opinion there is one definitive text written on the history of reuse: "Feed or Feedback: Agriculture, Population Dynamics and the State of the Planet" written by the emeritus professor in biological sciences, by A. Duncan-Brown - an absolute must read, not only for those interested in the history of reuse, but on the global impacts of end-of-pipe sanitation.

A sample from one review "Everybody concerned about the future of humanity needs to know the basic, ominous biochemistry of food production and population growth. After an excellent scientific introduction to what happens when a society literally cannot get its shit together, Brown lays out the alternatives before us: fundamental reform of our agriculture, or ultimate collapse."

I could not recommend this book more highly!!

www.amazon.co.uk/Feed-Feedback-Agricultu...namics/dp/905727048X
www.i-books.nl/subject/environment/policy/praiseforbrown.pdf

P.S. Guns, Germs and Steel is another great book, but of no real use in this context]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Mon, 24 Nov 2014 08:49:14 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: scottchen http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11109 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11109
In China, 20 years ago, when the labor was cheap and chemical fertilzer looked expensive, the farmers would collect the human and animal waste for the agriculture.

But, 10 years ago, the labor cost became expensive and the chemical fertilizer looker cheaper, few farmers were interested in reuse the huaman waste.

No profit is the major cause for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta.
Also, In China, we do not have a favorable policy for transporting the human waste while a chemical fertilzer producer is being subsidized by the govenment all the time.

The government has been ordering the state-owned banks to give loans to the farmers for puchasing the chemical fertilizers.

My conclusion is that it is the government that kills the business of reusing the human waste.


best regards
Scott]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Mon, 24 Nov 2014 03:46:21 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: dietvorst http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11100 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11100
There is an IWA Specialist Group on Water and Wastewater in Ancient Civilizations. They have just published a book (have't seen it myself), which may include historical info on reuse of excreta & urine:

Evolution of Sanitation and Wastewater Technologies through the Centuries
Editor(s): Andreas N. Angelakis and Joan B. Rose
Publication Date: 15 Sep 2014 • ISBN: 9781780404844
Pages: 500 • Paperback
www.iwapublishing.com/template.cfm?name=isbn9781780404844

Cor]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Sun, 23 Nov 2014 13:55:00 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: KaiMikkel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11043 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11043

* Note by moderator: The first book was mentioned above in a post by Sowmya who wrote: "Can you also look up the book, 'Guns, germs and steel' by Jared Diamond and see if he has written something about feces."]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Wed, 19 Nov 2014 02:47:59 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: KaiMikkel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11042 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11042 [Start of Page 2 of the discussion]


You hit the nail on the head. The reg's (or lack thereof) surrounding Class A sludge are a MASSIVE giveaway to industry because they remove all of the protections that are in place for follow-up monitoring of sludge disposal sites. Heavy metal contamination? No problem with Class A. Dump it wherever and in whatever quantity you want and no one's the wiser. Its even ending up now in the construction of sports fields for children, on playgrounds, in public spaces, in gardens and in yards. And yet Class A sludge is materially very similar to its Class B cousin. Go figure.]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Wed, 19 Nov 2014 02:42:41 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11036 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11036

[End of Page 1 of the discussion]]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:09:04 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11035 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11035
There are some Cochrane studies on subjects related to sanitation - for example this one on handwashing

summaries.cochrane.org/CD009382/PUBHLTH_...l-growth-in-children (which seems a bit of a misleading title, because it is more than just about handwashing)

There are other reviews on handwashing, particularly by Sandy Cairncross and team at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine - though it strikes me that the effect of handwashing must be at least partly a function of access to clean water.

There are lots of reviews about various aspects of agriculture relevant to sanitation by the World Health Organisation (WHO) - such as these www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/publications/ch5.pdf and the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) (I'm not sure what you are asking for in particular here)

Individual effects of faeces on rhizobia, I don't think there is a review but there might well be individual science studies.]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:05:47 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: Sowmya http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11033 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11033
Maybe you could consider including Mayan civilization also.

I think it is very important to study Mayan civilization. Remove all the fancy names we give our "modern" technologies but much of what we are doing now are tech they used to have all those centuries ago - and these civilizations vanished / not in their state of former glory. There are probably important risk factors to be found from the study of ancient civilizations, particularly, Mayan and ancient Egyptian civilization. There is an academic discipline called "technology and society". I wonder if your wikipage and this post relates to this discipline and if people who know "technology and society" discipline can also contribute to this discussion topic.

Why did the Mayans have such high technological progress but not so much of literature and mythology (or, maybe, I don't know about it) like Indus Valley or Chinese? There is a theory (not sure which discipline - just remember reading it somewhere) that humans are first nomads, then they settle down along river sides and once they get leisure time (agri + no constant travelling), they start developing new tech, arts and culture, etc. I had previously thought that literature is one of the first one to grow but Mayans had focused on tech so much and not literature. Why? Why did the Egyptians, after inventing papyrus, not write poetry and fiction (even if it was only restricted to exclusively mythology and/or philosophy)?

And, I sincerely hope the above will not be thought of in a negative sense. I find the study of ancient civilizations really interesting, just like the Mahabharata and Ramayana - messages handed down over centuries, only we need to decipher them correctly. See which civilizations developed along which lines, what could be possible reasons? The world did not have "enabling technologies" for globalization, for an inter-connected world. So, the "natural" factors (climate, rainfall, geology, etc.,) could have played a more significant role than it does in our present-day times. I have just begun my study. Maybe it is all 'blue stocking' stuff, history and all that, but I find it fascinating.

Can you also look up the book, 'Guns, germs and steel' by Jared Diamond and see if he has written something about feces. Interestingly, one of the contenders for the Mayan collapse theory is infectious diseases - particularly diarrhoea. Now consider what happened. They were using human feces as fertilizer, had developed very intensive agri methods and it was still inadequate. We have seen it around the world with current ecosan practices that people do not always wait for the feces to dry completely before using it in agriculture - I think this was found in Vietnam also, if I remember correctly. All that was required was for the ancient Mayans to use the feces which had not been made safe ('exigencies of the moment') and, with already existing rampant soil erosion, one flood could have resulted in large scale incidence of diarrhoea.

Study of ancient civilizations probably is a weird way of identifying risks, how to find scenarios to do risk assessment for, etc., ... anyway, just thought you might want to look up the use of human feces in Mayan civilization. Are there any articles on the use of human feces as a "traditional" agricultural practice in present times (as opposed to doing it as a result of spreading the modern ecosan concept)? I would like to know more about it and also, if there are any studies on the long-term soil effects / differences between (a) agricultural fields (where feces has been used as traditional practice), (b) fields where feces is used as a result of modern ecosan practice and (c) others where synthetic fertilizers have been used. Particularly interested in rhizobia though other soil quality parameters are of interest too.

One more question. Where can we find a collection of systematic reviews and/or meta-analysis relating to (a) sanitation and (b) agriculture? (Something similar to Cochrane Collaboration for medical information.)

Not sure if I would be able to reply often enough at present but thought it would be great to have a discussion on the above.

Warm regards,

Sowmya]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Tue, 18 Nov 2014 13:54:19 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: HAPitot http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11022 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#11022 Fertiliser / soil conditioner Mon, 17 Nov 2014 19:16:10 +0000 Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: KaiMikkel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10983 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10983 Fertiliser / soil conditioner Fri, 14 Nov 2014 02:56:40 +0000 Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: HAPitot http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10976 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10976
Concerning Class A sludge in the US, do you mean to say that no tests on pollutants are required, i.e. heavy metals, etc.? And what is meant with exothermic reaction? Is it composting? For pathogens, I can follow the logic, but heavy metals?

H-A]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Thu, 13 Nov 2014 20:27:18 +0000
World Water Week Forum on Resource Recovery through Social Business Models (experiences from SOIL in Haiti) - by: SOILHaiti http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10975-world-water-week-forum-on-resource-recovery-through-social-business-models-experiences-from-soil-in-haiti#10975 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10975-world-water-week-forum-on-resource-recovery-through-social-business-models-experiences-from-soil-in-haiti#10975 www.oursoil.org/soil-at-world-water-week/

It’s no secret that here at SOIL, we love poop and its resource potential. The creation of compost, and the revenue it generates, is an essential component of EkoLakay, SOIL’s household toilet social business pilot.

Fortunately, we’re not alone in our appreciation. This year’s World Water Week, one of the world’s largest events focused on water, sustainability, and development, featured a session on “Sanitation Business Models for Safe Resource Recovery and Reuse.” SOIL was honored to be among the presenters in this jam-packed session about current research and practices in the efforts to transform human waste into something safe, useful, and profitable.

SOIL, represented by acting Operations Director Nick Preneta, was one of five sanitation social businesses from around the globe that presented during the session. Nick gave an overview of the EkoLakay service, and the lessons SOIL has learned from the early stages of our pilot.

There were several interesting conclusions from the session. First, it recognizes the numerous challenges in creating self-sustaining social businesses in sanitation. No one has yet been able to create a full cycle sanitation system that is completely self-sustaining without waste treatment subsidies (for example, from the government), so we should celebrate making any part of the cycle profitable and keep working towards complete sustainability. It also emphasizes the need to invest in business and management training, as it is difficult to attract highly-skilled business people to a low-margin sector like sanitation. Finally, it highlights the importance of the ongoing work of SOIL and other practitioners in field-testing solutions and understanding – or creating – a market for end-products like compost.

Visit this link for video of the presentation.]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:32:03 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: KaiMikkel http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10944 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10944
1) Joe - a big push is underway in the United States (and Canada) to upgrade wastewater treatment facilities such that they can produce what's known here as "Class A" sludge. The only difference between Class B sludge (dewatered solids direct from a WWTP) and Class A sludge is a limited exothermic reaction and associated stricter limits on pathogens and 'vector attraction'. Amazingly, following heat treatment Class A sludge (and products containing it) can be applied anywhere and in any quantity; all of the followup monitoring and threshold requirements associated with Class B go away completely.

2) Elisabeth - Have you run across this history of dry toilets and reuse in historic Japan before?

faculty.unlv.edu/wjsmith/smithtest/Urban...Industrial-Japan.pdf

Very excited about the work underway to flesh out the historical aspect of ecosan! Thanks to everyone involved. ]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:49:04 +0000
Re: History of ecosan - Causes for abandoning recovery of nutrients from human excreta - by: joeturner http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10902 http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/17-fertiliser--soil-conditioner/10885-history-of-ecosan-causes-for-abandoning-recovery-of-nutrients-from-human-excreta?limit=12&start=12#10902
I will check more accurate numbers tomorrow but very little goes to landfill.

I agree nutrients are lost from the effluent, but sewage sludge is most definitely used as a fertiliser and has a measurable nutrient load, payment is usually required because the farmers know the water companies only have a limited number of places they can dispose of it.]]>
Fertiliser / soil conditioner Sun, 09 Nov 2014 21:37:00 +0000