SuSanA - Forum Kunena Site Syndication Sat, 30 Jul 2016 07:18:58 +0000 Kunena 1.6 SuSanA - Forum en-gb Re: New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) - by: clint
Thank you so much for helping me in "Quoting" the source.

You are exactly correct where I quoted the information.

More than helpful!!

Pura Vida,

User interface technology innovations Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:11:57 +0000
Re: New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) - by: muench
You wrote "Quoting from the internet" but didn't provide the source of WHERE on the internet? I guess it's from Wikipedia's article on helminths:

The text looked very familiar to me... No wonder, as I helped write it!

If anyone would like to know more about why I work on Wikipedia pages and how you could do the same, please see here on the forum:

It shows once again that Wikipedia is important. Where did Clint turn to, to find out more about helminth eggs? Wikipedia! So we should make sure the information is accurate.


P.S. I am looking forward to the new Wikipedia article on vermicomposting digesters that Dean is working on...]]>
User interface technology innovations Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:37:40 +0000
Re: New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) - by: clint
After having returned from Costa Rica installing rainwater harvesting/greywater treatment/utilization and ozone laundry energy/water/chemical reducing technologies I finally had the time to review your latest message regarding Helminth eggs, of which I really knew nothing.

Obviously, your concerns regarding these parasites are valid, as the quoted information states, but also as quoted, there is an immediate and effective solution by utilizing technology and free energy from the sun for direct heat, evaporation and disinfection if desired with significant amounts of ozone, which can also be economically created and utilized effectively.

Quoting from the internet

Due to this strong shell, helminth eggs or ova remain viable in soil, fresh water and sewage for many months. In feces, fecal sludge and sewage sludge they can even remain viable for several years.[10][11] Helminth eggs of concern in wastewater used for irrigation have a size between 20 and 90 μm and a relative density of 1.06–1.23.[8] [b][u]It is very difficult to inactivate helminth eggs, "unless temperature is increased above 40 °C or moisture is reduced to less than 5%.[8]"

Helminth eggs contained in wastewater, sewage sludge or human excreta are not always infectious, i.e. able to cause the disease helminthiasis. Fertilized eggs and unfertilized eggs can exist side by side. Unfertilized eggs are identifiable under the microscope by their elongated shape. No larvae can hatch from these kinds of eggs. Therefore, unfertilized eggs do not pose a danger to human health.

In the case of Ascaris lumbricoides (giant roundworm), which has been considered the most resistant and common helminth type, fertilized eggs deposited in soil are resistant to desiccation but are, at this stage of development, very sensitive to environmental temperatures: The reproduction of a fertilized egg within the eggshell develops at an environmental soil temperature about 25 °C which is lower than the body temperature of the host (i.e., 37 °C for humans).[19]

"However, development of the larvae in the egg stops at temperatures below 15.5 °C, and eggs cannot survive temperatures much above 38 °C." If the temperature is around 25 °C, the infectiousness occurs after nearly 10 days of incubation.[7][27][28] Finally, after 2 to 4 weeks in moist soil at optimal temperature and oxygen levels, the embryo develops into an infective larva, named "second-stage larva". This larva has the ability to get out of the egg, hatch in the small intestine and migrate to different organs. These infective larvae (or "infective eggs") may remain viable in soil for two years or longer.[19]

In order to physically remove (but not inactivate) helminth eggs from wastewater, processes that remove particles, such as sedimentation, filtration or coagulation-flocculation are employed.[29][30] Therefore, waste stabilization ponds (lagoons), storage bassins, constructed wetlands, rapid filtration or upflow anaerobic sludge blanket (UASB) reactors can be used. These conventional wastewater treatment processes do not inactivate the helminth ova but only removes them from the wastewater and moves them to the sewage sludge.

Helminth ova cannot be inactivated with chlorine, UV light "or ozone (in the latter case at least not with economical doses because >36 mg/L ozone are needed with 1 hour contact time)."

"Inactivation of helminth ova can be achieved in sewage sludge treatment where the temperature is increased over 40 °C or moisture is reduced to less than 5%.[8] Best results can be obtained when both of these conditions are combined for an extended period of time.[31] Details about the contact time under these conditions and other related environmental factors are generally not well-defined for every type of helminth egg species.[7] Helminth eggs are considered highly resistant biological structures.[8]"

I find your inclusion of a "false floor or french fry basket" aeration improvement invigorating but I totally disagree with you regarding the need for a carbon source for porosity advantages alone not to mention a transportation infrastructure for vermiculture.

I totally agree with you that the traditional old two rotating vessel concept does slowly decompose/evaporate human feces but, we were given the ability to improve our own existence and longevity by utilizing our own grey matter to its greatest advantage and that means using technology to expand our finite resources to their greatest advantage.

My concept of human resource recovery involves free energy utilizing technologies to treat and recover resources from previously as preached "wastes" as quickly as technologically possible in order to return those valuable/finite mineral resources back to our agricultural environment safely.

Our composting/vermiculture technologies mix the carbon source and the incoming human and organic food scrap resources immediately to create an optimal environment for not only all of Carl's aerobic and anaerobic critters but also Hajo's beneficial redworms (vermiculture).

The reason for our technologically improved automated design is to treat and to be able to recover the solid and liquid resources as quickly and safely as possible with a pre-manufactured, self-contained, double-walled vessel, containing the agitators, augers and liquid pumping systems.

Yearly, a much smaller in size conventional service septic pumping vehicle/trailer removes the freshly mixed and, normally providing a 1 year of composting/vermiculture retention time, before easy removal from the bottom with the augers. That "fresh", 90% removed in volume material, is then further composted in that separate mobile composting vessel on the vehicle/trailer, which will then be subjected to free solar heat and evaporation environments to maintain the above 40 degrees C temperatures for whatever period of time, thereby ensuring safe agricultural resources for immediate agricultural non-human edible reuse and recycle.

Whether it be Costa Rica or Bangladesh, as the automobile and cell phones developed, so shall onsite, automated, pre-manufactured water supply and wastewater treatment and recycling systems evolve utilizing technologies designed to maximize the utilization of our planetary resources everywhere and especially in "Developing" countries without the burden of an existing DOOMED piped infrastructure.

"The Rain Man"
El Hombre de la Lluvia
User interface technology innovations Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:28:35 +0000
Re: New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) - by: CompostEra
There are many ways of accomplishing volume reduction and my assumtion is that the process might go through many different stages during the course of its hopefully long life. It has been thought that the ultimate reduction is accomplished through combustion with a remaining ash content. But that again presupposes an aerobic process and in reality the process in the compostera tank over decades goes through a mix of aerobic but with anaerobic pockets in the mass. The gases from which can contain small amounts of sulphur and other gases not expected in a purely aerobic environment. Those gases turn out to often be absorbed by the aerobic environment surrounding the anaerobic pocket and end up not having the odors we would expect. Not unless we stir the pile and release those gases.

The sum total is sometimes that more can leave over decades than we would anticipate from a purely aerobic processing. So it has not been beneficial to design the system for any one special and exclusive process like vermicomposting but allow for several conditions to exist without supposing just one...]]>
User interface technology innovations Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:42:56 +0000
Re: [SuSanA forum] New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) (User interface technology innovations) - by: hajo
I never accused you of ‘not having a working system’ but I tried to find out how the CompostEra works (as a vermi-composting system) although its condition do not match with specifications I had read in books (by Appelhof and Pilkington) about vermi-composting.

I had accepted that you cannot send me addresses of your customers and had proposed instead that you give my email to some of your customers and they may contact me if they wish so (my posting of 16.06.).

I am tired of these discussions getting personal and I will not respond to this arguing anymore.

User interface technology innovations Tue, 19 Jul 2016 11:39:03 +0000
Re: [SuSanA forum] New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) (User interface technology innovations) - by: CompostEra
I think you have to take some responsibility for the discourse in this forum. Clivus was the first commercial composting toilet in the world with the prototyp from 1939 and this cement tank is still in my backyard in Sweden and still working fine by the way. So when you are starting the trail there will be followers, and some of them break out on their own for as many reasons as there were people doing it. Some of them thought they had better ideas, some wanted to keep the money from sales and manufacture a copy and some started their own variety (like the systems sitting on the floor of the bathroom). If you invite their opinion of CompostEra, you will naturally get their opinion of why their product is better or best.

When we call CompostEra a long-term processing toilet it is meant to be able to go the distance … not to be the fastest composter, not to be the simplest to install and as we started to talk about, not the ideal vermiculture set up focusing only on that. Mathematically, if you maximize any parameter, all other variables become irrelevant and that is seldom the optimum long term function.
CompostEra is a marathon runner not a sprinter !

But the discourse started when you and Clint accused me of not having a working system because
1. a competitor makes a claim that it doesn’t work,
2. because I won’t send you our customer listing ... what are you saying? ... should I violate the trust of our customers, who we have promised not to share their names and info in public ?

This is the only reason I did not send you any references which I stated the first time but you took that to mean that we didn’t have any references! If you privately would like to talk to people having had the CompostEra installed for several years, you can write me in private but then you have to promise not to publish their names unless they explicitly grant you that permission. I trust any other serious company would say the same.

All the best
User interface technology innovations Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:35:06 +0000
Re: New strategy stops pollution and saves the plant nutrients for future recovery (new Smart Toilet from Sweden, a new type of composting toilet) - by: goeco
You do not need pine bedding or a carbon source.
You do not need augers, agitators or float switches.

You do need good drainage.
You do need good ventilation and not just from above.

The concrete dyi concept is very viable with vermicomposting digesters, there are very good examples emerging in Africa seeded by Re-invent the Toilet.

A conservatively designed vermicomposting digester would:

  • be wide so the heap's horizontal spread is not limited.
  • have ventilation underneath, above and all sides (e.g. "french fry basket" or "perforated suspended floor").
  • have drainage that is assured of always draining away from under the bedding (i.e. never flood the substrate).

This will ensure efficient operation under all hydraulic loading and seasonal conditions, by following these basic rules.

The technology is simple and well proven. However, safety concerns remain about both the compost and the liquid "tea". Compost worms do no eat parasitic helminth ova. Before use as fertiliser, secondary treatment of the vermifiltered effluent is required to lower biological oxygen demand (BOD), suspended solids, and helminth egg count to safe levels. The composted solids also contain high levels of helminth eggs and these remain active for some time. The compost doesn't need to sit for 20+ years, but to be safe it does need to sit for long enough to deactivate all helminth eggs. I'd suggest 3 years "safe containment" would give assurance that this is the case... 5 years at the most.

Sufficient volume in the domestic waste vermicomposter is required to remain operational without removal of solids for 5 years. I have found a chamber volume of 1 m3 to be sufficient for an average family, taking into account seasonal fluctuations with the worms. The twin-chamber design, each of 1m3 therefore allows each side to rest for 5 years before removal of compost. This is all very straight forward and most suitable for primary decentralised treatment in developing countries. There really is no need for proprietary technologies, just local knowledge and access to materials.

What does need further work is on simple secondary treatment systems suitable for developing countries that offers significant and consistent reductions in helminth counts in the liquid effluent so this could be used safely for crop fertigation.]]>
User interface technology innovations Mon, 18 Jul 2016 11:38:43 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: kevintayler
It would be interesting to have information on any independent evaluation of the Sulabh twin-pit toilets. How did they work, what were the problems, what steps were taken to overcome those problems and did those steps work? If anyone has any information on this, it would provide a really useful contribution to the discussion.]]>
User interface technology innovations Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:05:38 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: arno
Here are a few more links to the Sulabh systems.

And in China household biogas systems made up of pour flush toilets also receiving piggery slurry has grown to enormous proportions - assisted by government programmes. Over 40 million installations and that was some 5 years ago.]]>
User interface technology innovations Tue, 12 Jul 2016 07:19:12 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: kevintayler
First, as stated by Canaday, biogas collection from Sulabh toilets is from their public toilets, which are not of the twin-pit type. I doubt very much if there would be enough biogas generated from individual household twin pit pour-flush toilets to make its collection a practical proposition.

Second, again in relation to twin pit toilets, I think that it is important to distinguish between what happens in theory and what happens in practice. Sulabh do claim that most of their twin pit toilets are working well but I am doubtful whether this is the case. A couple of years ago, I visited various services upgrading initiatives in low-income settlements in five towns in Bangladesh, all implemented under the UN/DFID-supported UPPR project. Most of these used twin pits. We found none that were being used alternately, as required by the design. In many cases, one of the pits had been built over so that it was now impossible to empty it. Few users knew how the system was meant to work. One of the factors here is that the design seems to be based on the assumption that households themselves will empty the pits but the reality is that even low-income households employ sweepers for this task and so there is little incentive for households to ensure that the contents are safe to handle when removed. I would not say that the UPPR twin pit toilets were a failure, the second pit provided additional capacity. However, given that they were not being used as intended, it would probably have been better to provide one larger pit.

There was a much earlier attempt to introduce twin vault toilets in Botswana - through a World Bank-funded project in the late 1970s. This used direct drop vaults rather than pour-flush but it was not a success. There are probably lessons to be learnt for other parts of Southern Africa. I do not have direct experience of this initiative but I get the impression that people wanted water-flushed sanitation. Official policy in Botswana is to provide sewers although I do not think that it makes a lot of sense for low-density settlements with limited access to water. When I was there about 3 years ago, some people argued that sewered sanitation was necessary because of the risk of nitrate contamination of groundwater but I would have thought that the health and environmental risks from potentially non-functioning sewers would be much higher.

Dave Still's figure of 23 litres of sludge accumulation per year is similar to figures obtained in Indonesia by Freya Mills, working with WSP. These gave median and mean accumulation rates of 13 and 25 litres per person per year, the difference explained by the fact that a relatively small number of pits had very high apparent accumulation rates. These figures, taken with some of the higher accumulation rates recorded in Southern Africa for direct drop pits suggest that the main need here is to keep extraneous solids out of the pit or tank. Failure to do this results in both an increase in the sludge accumulation rate and greatly increased difficulties in desludging pits. My view is that, where water is available, the benefits of providing a pour-flush pan (less odour, lower sludge accumulation and easier emptying) will compensate for the increased water need but this will obviously depend on local factors.

The toilets built in Zambia in the 1960s were indeed aqua privies rather than pour-flush toilets. They discharged to 100mm and 150mm diameter sewers. Marcus Vines and Bob Reed from WEDC reported on their performance in 1991. I have hard copies of some of the reports. At that time, around 30 years after they had been built, they were working well. They had never been desludged and this may have been due to a fairly high use of water for flushing (although this is conjecture I think). The report on Matero in Lusaka records many cases of sewer blockages, mainly due to pieces of cloth, plastic bags, hard paper and corn cobs. Presumably, the problems would have been reduced if pour-flush pans had been used rather than the direct drop aqua-privy arrangement.

I think that is all for now. Let me know if any of this needs further clarification]]>
User interface technology innovations Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:42:01 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: sjoerdnienhuys See

It may be worthwhile to verify the results of that initiative.]]>
User interface technology innovations Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:22:53 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: canaday
I have found no cases in the internet of biogas being collected from TPPF (Twin-pit Pour-flush Toilets). Sulabh makes biogas from big community toilet blocks, not from dispersed TPPFs. (If it is possible to collect biogas from TPPF, please post links.)

Here is their discussión of TPPFs, with one of the main advantages being the safe, simple extraction of the decomposed feces after at least about 2 years:

I did, however, find another interesting option: the UDTPPF !
Dorothee Spuhler describes a Urine-diverting TPPF, with a divided squat pan
Also (I attach a photo from here.)

I would suggest that a UDTPPF could channel the urine directly into a 12-meter-long perforated hose that is buried 10 to 20 cm below the surface of the soil among fruit trees, banana plants, etc. This would:
-- more efficiently recycle the 90% of the nutrients that are found in the urine;
-- reduce by about half the amount of liquid that would carry the fecal contamination toward the groundwater and rivers; and
-- likely create better conditions for the decomposition of the feces.

We have not had trouble with these perforated hoses plugging, but, if that were to happen, there could be two hoses to be used alternately, thus giving time for the blockages to decompose ... a bit like the alternating pits.

Another interesting point that Sulabh mentions is that the soil absorbs the gases produced in the pits.

I think this sort of UDTPPF could have enormous application, where soils are absorbent enough and population density is low enough. It might also be feasible to do this with efficient UD sit-down flush toilets that really do not leak constantly (UDTPFT). A big advantage of Pour-flush is the ease of using greywater from bathing, laundry or dishwashing (preferably without chlorine and non-biodegradable detergents).

Best wishes,
Chris Canaday]]>
User interface technology innovations Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:01:02 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: awhitesell User interface technology innovations Sat, 09 Jul 2016 21:36:47 +0000 Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: arno
Dave, the 23 liters of accumulated sludge per person per year for both VIPs and leach pits is an interesting result. That's about a 50% decrease in volume compared to annual production of faeces. I expect most of that decrease is due to compaction and there is very little degradation occurring. What about all that work on EM (effective microorganisms) that was borrowed from the compost people? What about the nitrate levels in these two systems? Keeping things wet and anaerobic could be a way to prevent production of nitrate.

Chris, re TPPF - Sulabh in India is of course the global success story when it comes to implementing this technology and reusing the products. They collect biogas and sludge fertiliser from these systems. Sending a person down the inactive pit to loosen up the digested sludge after a lengthy period of time has its risks if the digestion process has not been completed - there can remain methane and hydrogen sulfide gas. But I believe Sulabh has much experience with the digestion process rendering the inactive pits safe for disposal.

re the leach pits that don't fill up, this was a curious observation made while in China. We saw flush toilets leading to leach pits that had sealed concrete covers - never opened and in use for over 10 years. We asked to have one opened (using chisel and hammer) and observed there was fresh oxidized sludge in the pit about half a meter from the surface and about a half meter depth of sludge. These systems are free from toilet paper or solid waste. They have a gravel base and drain well. Presumably these would flood over if the soil contained clay or if in high ground water conditions. Question is whether they attain some sort of steady state in terms of sludge build up.

Andrew - what you are referring to are conservancy tanks that are sealed and yes this is a viable business if there are regulations that such systems are mandatory and people are willing to pay for the frequent emptying service. We have such systems in rural Sweden where septic tanks with leaching beds are not permitted. Eventually people change these for modern UDDTs to save on costs.

User interface technology innovations Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:28:20 +0000
Re: Are pour flush toilets a good idea for (South) Africa? - by: sjoerdnienhuys In that context it is useful that toilets are constructed on the second floor (storey) with groundfloor sealed digestion and compost containers. By means of designed vehicles these can than be easily emptied. In locations where sewerage is available, the liquid only content can be discharged to the sewer, eventuall by vacuum system. Considering population numbers and densities, new sanitation concepts need to be developed in the townships.]]> User interface technology innovations Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:09:29 +0000